The trouble with OMBO and IBS

"JohnH" <nospinzone.DeleteThis@rec.boats> wrote in message news:u4i4lvgot7078m98v0hjvlf7k1bhcj5fd5@4ax.com...
 > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:27:02 -0400, "Simple Simon" <Pieman.DeleteThis@Mincemeat.com> wrote:
 >
  > >The trouble with one man bridge operation (OMB0) on large ships is
  > >one man cannot possibly pay enough attention all the time he's on watch.
  > >
  > >Rather than making navigation safer these integrated bridge systems (IBS)
  > >make it more dangerous. You can have an IBS costing in the millions and
  > >still the weak link in the chain is the human factor. OMBO exists for one
  > >reason and one reason only - to save the shipping company money by
  > >cutting vital personnel.
  > >
  > >As demonstrated here in this very group by people such as otnmbrd,
  > >Shen44 and Jeff Morris the weak link can be weak indeed.
  > >
  > >Increased safety, increased cost-saving and increased efficiency in
  > >navigation are the major concerns for all vessels so Furuno sells
  > >systems that make Furuno lots of money but actually make navigation
  > >more dangerous because Furuno doesn't recognize the weak link in
  > >the system - the Ocean Master.
  > >
  > >S.Simon
  > >(A Captain who takes sailing seriously)
  > >
<font color=green>  > >references: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font</a>>
  > >
 > If it's any consolation, I have problems with OMBO on my little 21' Proline,
 > occasionally.

Maybe you should consider drinking fewer beers? <!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The trouble with OMBO and IBS 

Have you ever travelled with anything other than OMBO?

And if you take sailing so seriously, why did you never get the sailing endorsement on
your license?

Simple Simon wrote:
 > The trouble with one man bridge operation (OMB0) on large ships is
 > one man cannot possibly pay enough attention all the time he's on
 > watch.
 >
 > Rather than making navigation safer these integrated bridge systems
 > (IBS) make it more dangerous. You can have an IBS costing in the
 > millions and still the weak link in the chain is the human factor.
 > OMBO exists for one reason and one reason only - to save the shipping
 > company money by cutting vital personnel.
 >
 > As demonstrated here in this very group by people such as otnmbrd,
 > Shen44 and Jeff Morris the weak link can be weak indeed.
 >
 > Increased safety, increased cost-saving and increased efficiency in
 > navigation are the major concerns for all vessels so Furuno sells
 > systems that make Furuno lots of money but actually make navigation
 > more dangerous because Furuno doesn't recognize the weak link in
 > the system - the Ocean Master.
 >
 > S.Simon
 > (A Captain who takes sailing seriously)
 >
 > references:
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font</a>><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The trouble with OMBO and IBS 

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:50:43 -0400, "Simple Simon" <Pieman DeleteThis @Mincemeat.com> wrote:

 >
 >"JohnH" <nospinzone DeleteThis @rec.boats> wrote in message news:u4i4lvgot7078m98v0hjvlf7k1bhcj5fd5@4ax.com...
  >> On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:27:02 -0400, "Simple Simon" <Pieman DeleteThis @Mincemeat.com> wrote:
  >>
   >> >The trouble with one man bridge operation (OMB0) on large ships is
   >> >one man cannot possibly pay enough attention all the time he's on watch.
   >> >
   >> >Rather than making navigation safer these integrated bridge systems (IBS)
   >> >make it more dangerous. You can have an IBS costing in the millions and
   >> >still the weak link in the chain is the human factor. OMBO exists for one
   >> >reason and one reason only - to save the shipping company money by
   >> >cutting vital personnel.
   >> >
   >> >As demonstrated here in this very group by people such as otnmbrd,
   >> >Shen44 and Jeff Morris the weak link can be weak indeed.
   >> >
   >> >Increased safety, increased cost-saving and increased efficiency in
   >> >navigation are the major concerns for all vessels so Furuno sells
   >> >systems that make Furuno lots of money but actually make navigation
   >> >more dangerous because Furuno doesn't recognize the weak link in
   >> >the system - the Ocean Master.
   >> >
   >> >S.Simon
   >> >(A Captain who takes sailing seriously)
   >> >
<font color=brown>   >> >references: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font</a>>
   >> >
  >> If it's any consolation, I have problems with OMBO on my little 21' Proline,
  >> occasionally.
 >
 >Maybe you should consider drinking fewer beers?
 >
Don't drink - only water. Maybe I need an IBS though.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The trouble with OMBO and IBS 

My little, 27-foot sailboat doesn't need a full crew to operate
safely while a giant ship DOES. Say, for instance, what if
the one man at the bridge suffers a stroke or heart attack?
How many hours will the ship operate on instruments alone
and how many collisions will result? How many deaths of
innocents aboard other ships - possibly a cruise ship with
thousands aboard? It WILL happen sooner or later.

There needs to be a legal minimum of three qualified men
on the bridge at all times. One lone man does not cut the
mustard. It's criminal that so-called professional captains allow
this abuse of safety. It's even worse that the Coast Guard
doesn't do something about it on American flagged
vessels, at least. Deaths caused by OMMO on American
flagged vessels will ultimately rest on the Coast Guard's
shoulders.

The FAA, at least, has it's act together. One pilot doesn't
get it on large commercial aircraft. Two and a navigator
are the minimum. It should be the same aboard large
ships.

That's the main difference. If Shen44 and otnmbrd were more
motivated by safety and less motivated by greed they would
strike and refuse, along with all sane captains, to operate a
huge motor vessel single-handed. But, noooooooooo, they
add to the dangerous situation rather than act to diffuse it.


As for your question about my getting a sailing endorsement . . .
A sailing endorsement is not needed at this time. I know
the answers to all the questions so I have the same knowledge
with or without the endorsement. I definitely have the experience
needed as well. Since I'm not taking passengers for hire aboard my
yacht at this time a sailing endorsement is rather like teats on a
boarhog.

So, quit trying to change the subject and stick to the topic for
once. You know in your heart I'm right about OMBO. I bet
even Shen agrees. But that otnmbrd - he hasn't a clue.

S.Simon - a Captain who is serious about sailing


"Jeff Morris" <jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom> wrote in message news:8recndpHc9NUzM-iU-KYuQ@comcast.com...
 > Have you ever travelled with anything other than OMBO?
 >
 > And if you take sailing so seriously, why did you never get the sailing endorsement on
 > your license?
 >
 > Simple Simon wrote:
  > > The trouble with one man bridge operation (OMB0) on large ships is
  > > one man cannot possibly pay enough attention all the time he's on
  > > watch.
  > >
  > > Rather than making navigation safer these integrated bridge systems
  > > (IBS) make it more dangerous. You can have an IBS costing in the
  > > millions and still the weak link in the chain is the human factor.
  > > OMBO exists for one reason and one reason only - to save the shipping
  > > company money by cutting vital personnel.
  > >
  > > As demonstrated here in this very group by people such as otnmbrd,
  > > Shen44 and Jeff Morris the weak link can be weak indeed.
  > >
  > > Increased safety, increased cost-saving and increased efficiency in
  > > navigation are the major concerns for all vessels so Furuno sells
  > > systems that make Furuno lots of money but actually make navigation
  > > more dangerous because Furuno doesn't recognize the weak link in
  > > the system - the Ocean Master.
  > >
  > > S.Simon
  > > (A Captain who takes sailing seriously)
  > >
  > > references:
<font color=green>  > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font</a>>
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The trouble with OMBO and IBS 

"JohnH" <nospinzone.TakeThisOut@rec.boats> wrote in message news:d9l4lv8m3bq4bmto7dr03mht1ccerufd69@4ax.com...
  > >
 > Don't drink - only water. Maybe I need an IBS though.


Why? So you can crash into something while fiddling with all
the knobs?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The trouble with OMBO and IBS 

I'll agree - I am a bit troubled by OMBO. However, the books are filled with screwups on
all sizes of boats, both pleasure and commercial, with full bridges as well as empty ones.
Having extra hands doesn't guarantee results - just consider the QEII grounding.

As for the FAA, I don't beleive a navigator is required any longer - I think the flight
crew on most jets is just the pilot and co-pilot.

And if the sailing endorsement is useless, so is your license. Or do you have visions of
using it to drive a water taxi?


Simple Simon wrote:
 > My little, 27-foot sailboat doesn't need a full crew to operate
 > safely while a giant ship DOES. Say, for instance, what if
 > the one man at the bridge suffers a stroke or heart attack?
 > How many hours will the ship operate on instruments alone
 > and how many collisions will result? How many deaths of
 > innocents aboard other ships - possibly a cruise ship with
 > thousands aboard? It WILL happen sooner or later.
 >
 > There needs to be a legal minimum of three qualified men
 > on the bridge at all times. One lone man does not cut the
 > mustard. It's criminal that so-called professional captains allow
 > this abuse of safety. It's even worse that the Coast Guard
 > doesn't do something about it on American flagged
 > vessels, at least. Deaths caused by OMMO on American
 > flagged vessels will ultimately rest on the Coast Guard's
 > shoulders.
 >
 > The FAA, at least, has it's act together. One pilot doesn't
 > get it on large commercial aircraft. Two and a navigator
 > are the minimum. It should be the same aboard large
 > ships.
 >
 > That's the main difference. If Shen44 and otnmbrd were more
 > motivated by safety and less motivated by greed they would
 > strike and refuse, along with all sane captains, to operate a
 > huge motor vessel single-handed. But, noooooooooo, they
 > add to the dangerous situation rather than act to diffuse it.
 >
 >
 > As for your question about my getting a sailing endorsement . . .
 > A sailing endorsement is not needed at this time. I know
 > the answers to all the questions so I have the same knowledge
 > with or without the endorsement. I definitely have the experience
 > needed as well. Since I'm not taking passengers for hire aboard my
 > yacht at this time a sailing endorsement is rather like teats on a
 > boarhog.
 >
 > So, quit trying to change the subject and stick to the topic for
 > once. You know in your heart I'm right about OMBO. I bet
 > even Shen agrees. But that otnmbrd - he hasn't a clue.
 >
 > S.Simon - a Captain who is serious about sailing
 >
 >
 > "Jeff Morris" <jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom> wrote in message
 > news:8recndpHc9NUzM-iU-KYuQ@comcast.com...
  >> Have you ever travelled with anything other than OMBO?
  >>
  >> And if you take sailing so seriously, why did you never get the
  >> sailing endorsement on your license?
  >>
  >> Simple Simon wrote:
   >>> The trouble with one man bridge operation (OMB0) on large ships is
   >>> one man cannot possibly pay enough attention all the time he's on
   >>> watch.
   >>>
   >>> Rather than making navigation safer these integrated bridge systems
   >>> (IBS) make it more dangerous. You can have an IBS costing in the
   >>> millions and still the weak link in the chain is the human factor.
   >>> OMBO exists for one reason and one reason only - to save the
   >>> shipping company money by cutting vital personnel.
   >>>
   >>> As demonstrated here in this very group by people such as otnmbrd,
   >>> Shen44 and Jeff Morris the weak link can be weak indeed.
   >>>
   >>> Increased safety, increased cost-saving and increased efficiency in
   >>> navigation are the major concerns for all vessels so Furuno sells
   >>> systems that make Furuno lots of money but actually make navigation
   >>> more dangerous because Furuno doesn't recognize the weak link in
   >>> the system - the Ocean Master.
   >>>
   >>> S.Simon
   >>> (A Captain who takes sailing seriously)
   >>>
   >>> references:
<font color=brown>   >>> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font</a>><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The trouble with OMBO and IBS 

"Jeff Morris" <jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom> wrote in message news:_26dne1HwqVw_s-iU-KYvw@comcast.com...
 > And if the sailing endorsement is useless, so is your license. Or do you have visions of
 > using it to drive a water taxi?


I don't see how you can claim my license is
useless without a sail endorsement. My Master's
license allows me to take people out on an aux/sail
boat and charge them money to do it. Whether I
start the motor or not my Master's license is sufficient
to make me a legal operation. The only way I'm
not legal is if I attempt to captain a pure sailing vessel
for hire.

Yours is a common misconception about the sailing
endorsement. Actually, the sailing endorsement is almost
useless because there are really so few sailboats large
enough to charter that don't have motors.

I hope I've been of some help here.

S.Simon - a Captain who is serious about sailing<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The trouble with OMBO and IBS 

Simple Simon wrote:

 > The trouble with one man bridge operation (OMB0) on large ships is
 > one man cannot possibly pay enough attention all the time he's on watch.

Wrong, but I don't agree with one man bridge watches, and most ships
still use two. What I definitely disagree with is singlehanded sailing,
such as you always claim to be doing .... then you have far more than 4
hours as the helm.
 >
 > Rather than making navigation safer these integrated bridge systems (IBS)
 > make it more dangerous. You can have an IBS costing in the millions and
 > still the weak link in the chain is the human factor. OMBO exists for one
 > reason and one reason only - to save the shipping company money by
 > cutting vital personnel.

Your (IBS) tends to put everything at a single station for the watch
stander to view concurrently, so that he/she can maintain a constant
watch over all factors from a single station ....good idea.
 >
 > As demonstrated here in this very group by people such as otnmbrd,
 > Shen44 and Jeff Morris the weak link can be weak indeed.

LOL... the biggest weak link I see here, is yourself, a Novice, with an
overinflated sense of his knowledge and abilities.
 >
 > Increased safety, increased cost-saving and increased efficiency in
 > navigation are the major concerns for all vessels so Furuno sells
 > systems that make Furuno lots of money but actually make navigation
 > more dangerous because Furuno doesn't recognize the weak link in
 > the system - the Ocean Master.

Are you one of those who thinks the Master lives on the bridge while at
sea? .....probably......
 >
 > S.Simon
 > (A Captain who takes sailing seriously)..... as long as he doesn't have to sail much.
 >
<font color=purple> > references: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font</a>>
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The trouble with OMBO and IBS 

Simple Simon wrote:

 > My little, 27-foot sailboat doesn't need a full crew to operate
 > safely while a giant ship DOES. Say, for instance, what if
 > the one man at the bridge suffers a stroke or heart attack?
 > How many hours will the ship operate on instruments alone
 > and how many collisions will result? How many deaths of
 > innocents aboard other ships - possibly a cruise ship with
 > thousands aboard? It WILL happen sooner or later.

Don't know how one man bridges operate, I see. What if YOU have a heart
attack, alone on your boat?
 >
 > There needs to be a legal minimum of three qualified men
 > on the bridge at all times. One lone man does not cut the
 > mustard. It's criminal that so-called professional captains allow
 > this abuse of safety. It's even worse that the Coast Guard
 > doesn't do something about it on American flagged
 > vessels, at least. Deaths caused by OMMO on American
 > flagged vessels will ultimately rest on the Coast Guard's
 > shoulders.

Why three? What are these three supposed to be doing?
 >
 > The FAA, at least, has it's act together. One pilot doesn't
 > get it on large commercial aircraft. Two and a navigator
 > are the minimum. It should be the same aboard large
 > ships.

Think pilot and co-pilot are all, nowadays.
 >
 > That's the main difference. If Shen44 and otnmbrd were more
 > motivated by safety and less motivated by greed they would
 > strike and refuse, along with all sane captains, to operate a
 > huge motor vessel single-handed. But, noooooooooo, they
 > add to the dangerous situation rather than act to diffuse it.

LOL neither Shen nor I have ever operated a large motor vessel or steam
vessel single handed .... can you say the same about your dinky little
sailboat?
 >
 >
 > As for your question about my getting a sailing endorsement . . .
 > A sailing endorsement is not needed at this time. I know
 > the answers to all the questions so I have the same knowledge
 > with or without the endorsement. I definitely have the experience
 > needed as well. Since I'm not taking passengers for hire aboard my
 > yacht at this time a sailing endorsement is rather like teats on a
 > boarhog.

ROFL As you've proved with the Rules of the Road, knowing the answers to
the questions on the test, is NO indication of your actual knowledge
and/or abilities.


otn<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The trouble with OMBO and IBS 

ROFL I'd love to be a fly on the bulkhead, the day you try to sling this
lame excuse at Uncle Sammies USCG.
You're license is useless, Neal, like it or lump it .... course
considering the person holding it.......

Simple Simon wrote:

 > "Jeff Morris" <jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom> wrote in message news:_26dne1HwqVw_s-iU-KYvw@comcast.com...
 >
  >>And if the sailing endorsement is useless, so is your license. Or do you have visions of
  >>using it to drive a water taxi?
 >
 >
 >
 > I don't see how you can claim my license is
 > useless without a sail endorsement. My Master's
 > license allows me to take people out on an aux/sail
 > boat and charge them money to do it. Whether I
 > start the motor or not my Master's license is sufficient
 > to make me a legal operation. The only way I'm
 > not legal is if I attempt to captain a pure sailing vessel
 > for hire.
 >
 > Yours is a common misconception about the sailing
 > endorsement. Actually, the sailing endorsement is almost
 > useless because there are really so few sailboats large
 > enough to charter that don't have motors.
 >
 > I hope I've been of some help here.
 >
 > S.Simon - a Captain who is serious about sailing
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The trouble with OMBO and IBS 

As one who also takes sailing seriously, I tend to agree except for the fact
that the company which owns the ship dictates how many are on the bridge at
any given tims. If one were to have a fully manned bridge with similar
electronics it would be much safer than a similar bridge with no
electronics, as history shows. It is the simple hunt for the almighty
corporate dollar that makes for such situations, not the presence of
intigrated systems.
"Simple Simon" <Pieman RemoveThis @Mincemeat.com> wrote in message
news:T-SdneDtBr1qoM-iRTvUrg@terranova.net...
 > The trouble with one man bridge operation (OMB0) on large ships is
 > one man cannot possibly pay enough attention all the time he's on watch.
 >
 > Rather than making navigation safer these integrated bridge systems (IBS)
 > make it more dangerous. You can have an IBS costing in the millions and
 > still the weak link in the chain is the human factor. OMBO exists for one
 > reason and one reason only - to save the shipping company money by
 > cutting vital personnel.
 >
 > As demonstrated here in this very group by people such as otnmbrd,
 > Shen44 and Jeff Morris the weak link can be weak indeed.
 >
 > Increased safety, increased cost-saving and increased efficiency in
 > navigation are the major concerns for all vessels so Furuno sells
 > systems that make Furuno lots of money but actually make navigation
 > more dangerous because Furuno doesn't recognize the weak link in
 > the system - the Ocean Master.
 >
 > S.Simon
 > (A Captain who takes sailing seriously)
 >
<font color=purple> > references: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.furuno.co.jp/english/marine/voyager/voyager.html</font</a>>
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The trouble with OMBO and IBS 

otnmbrd wrote:

 > LOL neither Shen nor I have ever operated an apple single
 > handed .... can you say the same about your orange?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The trouble with OMBO and IBS 

"Simple Simon" <Pieman RemoveThis @Mincemeat.com> wrote in message
 >
 > The FAA, at least, has it's act together. One pilot doesn't
 > get it on large commercial aircraft. Two and a navigator
 > are the minimum.

Not real sure of the date, but I don't think there has been a civil aircraft
that required a navigator for thirty years or more.

JG<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The trouble with OMBO and IBS