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can't go through the starting line

 
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Roy Smith1

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Since: Aug 08, 2003
Posts: 8



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:29 am
Post subject: can't go through the starting line
Archived from groups: rec>boats>racing (more info?)

My racing fleet has a "can't go through the start-finish line" rule in
the sailing instructions that reads like this:

> 9 RESTRICTED AREAS - The restricted areas depicted on the Sailing
> Instruction's chart are: The triangle bounded by R "2" Fl R 4s "Big
> Tom", N "4", and Belden Point, the triangle bounded by Stepping Stones
> lighthouse, N "2", and N "4", and between Fl R 4s "46" and the
> southern tip of Hart Island. Boats shall not sail through these areas
> except when rounding "B" as a specified mark of the course. After
> starting and before finishing, a boat shall not sail through the
> finish line. Any boat violating a restricted area or crossing the
> finish line while racing and not starting or finishing shall correct
> her error by sailing out the same side from which she entered.

Last night, we were on the 2nd beat, on a leg that put the
start-finish line in the middle of the course. Both us and another
boat were close-hauled on port. We were clearing the port end of the
finish line (a private bouy with navigable water on all sides).
Another boat was ahead and to leeward of us, and had to pinch
severerly to get around the pin; they made it, but touched the pin in
the process.

Two questions come out of this:

First question:

Do they need to do a 360 for hitting the mark? The general consensus
was that they didn't, since it wasn't a mark of the course, but I'm
not convinced that's correct. Rule 31.1 says:

> While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before
> starting, a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course
> on which she is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing.

Clearly, the pin doesn't start or end a leg of the course, but does it
"bound" it? I think it might. You have your choice of keeping the
pin to starboard OR keeping the RC boat to port, but you need to pick
one and do it. That sounds like bounding to me. The last sentence of
SI 9 quoted above sure sounds like the "unwinding" rule, which also
leads me to believe it bounds the leg.

Second question:

Let's assume for the moment that the consensus is right, and the other
boat didn't have to do a 360 because it's not a mark. Does this also
mean we didn't owe them room? As the situation evolved above, they
were the leeward boat, so it wasn't an issue, but let's say we were
both on starboard, they were the windward boat and needed to foot off
to clear the pin. Would I be within my rights to pinch up and deny
them room to get below the pin? Since there's navigable water on all
sides, it's not an obstruction, so I don't think rule 18 applies. The
definition is:

> Obstruction: An object that a boat could not pass without changing
> course substantially, if she were sailing directly towards it and
> one of her hull lengths from it. An object that can be safely passed
> on only one side and an area so designated by the sailing
> instructions are also obstructions. However, a boat racing is not an
> obstruction to other boats unless they are required to keep clear of
> her, give her room or, if rule 21 applies, avoid her.

The sailing instructions define "restricted areas", but don't say that
they are obstructions. It might be reasonable to assume that they
are, but it doesn't actually say that.

I know it's pretty common to have "don't go through the start-finish
line" rules. How do other sailing instructions word them to avoid
these ambiguities?

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DSK2

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Since: May 12, 2004
Posts: 810



(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:06 pm
Post subject: Re: can't go through the starting line [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Roy Smith wrote:
> My racing fleet has a "can't go through the start-finish line"

Isn't that kind of old fashioned? Wink

> Last night, we were on the 2nd beat, on a leg that put the
> start-finish line in the middle of the course. Both us and another
> boat were close-hauled on port. We were clearing the port end of the
> finish line (a private bouy with navigable water on all sides).
> Another boat was ahead and to leeward of us, and had to pinch
> severerly to get around the pin; they made it, but touched the pin in
> the process.
>
> Two questions come out of this:
>
> First question:
>
> Do they need to do a 360 for hitting the mark?

I'd say yes. If they can't freely go on either side of it, then it's
either an obstruction or a mark of the course. Was it an obstruction?


> Clearly, the pin doesn't start or end a leg of the course, but does it
> "bound" it? I think it might.

Agreed. Probably worth discussing it in more detail with some of the
skippers in your fleet, maybe with some of the PROs in your club too.

One problem I've often found is that people have preconceptions about
the rules that, in their minds, over ride what the rules actually say in
black & white.


> Second question:
>
> Let's assume for the moment that the consensus is right, and the other
> boat didn't have to do a 360 because it's not a mark. Does this also
> mean we didn't owe them room?

Yep. It would be the logical conclusion thereof.

Technically, it's not an obstruction because the boat which could not
pinch it's way past one end of the line could bear away, run the line,
and head up to a closehauled course after passing the other end of the
line. Sure, they'd lose a lot of distance, but the rules don't guarantee
anybody a speedy trip around the course Wink


> ... let's say we were
> both on starboard, they were the windward boat and needed to foot off
> to clear the pin. Would I be within my rights to pinch up and deny
> them room to get below the pin?

Personally, I would not. They could always tack, bear away and run the
line, etc etc. But with the idea that it bounds the leg, you would owe
them bouy room.

>
> I know it's pretty common to have "don't go through the start-finish
> line" rules. How do other sailing instructions word them to avoid
> these ambiguities?

IMHO it's not an ambiguity, I think it's tunnel vision on the part of
the other sailors.

BTW thanks for quoting the rules & definitions in your post.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

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Malcolm Osborne

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Since: Jun 10, 2005
Posts: 6



(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:32 am
Post subject: Re: can't go through the starting line [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

We treat this situation such that the whole line is an obstruction. This
line happens to have a bouy or boat at the end.

As such, rule 18 applies, but not rule 31 (i.e `one-turn' doesn't apply)

I havn't come across any of our `sea lawyers' coming up with arguments such
as you quote. Our SI's say pretty much what yours do.

regards,

--
Malcolm Osborne
Benoni, South Africa


"Roy Smith" <roy.RemoveThis@panix.com> wrote in message
news:d89n8l$4vq$1@panix2.panix.com...
> My racing fleet has a "can't go through the start-finish line" rule in
> the sailing instructions that reads like this:
>
>> 9 RESTRICTED AREAS - The restricted areas depicted on the Sailing
>> Instruction's chart are: The triangle bounded by R "2" Fl R 4s "Big
>> Tom", N "4", and Belden Point, the triangle bounded by Stepping Stones
>> lighthouse, N "2", and N "4", and between Fl R 4s "46" and the
>> southern tip of Hart Island. Boats shall not sail through these areas
>> except when rounding "B" as a specified mark of the course. After
>> starting and before finishing, a boat shall not sail through the
>> finish line. Any boat violating a restricted area or crossing the
>> finish line while racing and not starting or finishing shall correct
>> her error by sailing out the same side from which she entered.
>
> Last night, we were on the 2nd beat, on a leg that put the
> start-finish line in the middle of the course. Both us and another
> boat were close-hauled on port. We were clearing the port end of the
> finish line (a private bouy with navigable water on all sides).
> Another boat was ahead and to leeward of us, and had to pinch
> severerly to get around the pin; they made it, but touched the pin in
> the process.
>
> Two questions come out of this:
>
> First question:
>
> Do they need to do a 360 for hitting the mark? The general consensus
> was that they didn't, since it wasn't a mark of the course, but I'm
> not convinced that's correct. Rule 31.1 says:
>
>> While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before
>> starting, a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course
>> on which she is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing.
>
> Clearly, the pin doesn't start or end a leg of the course, but does it
> "bound" it? I think it might. You have your choice of keeping the
> pin to starboard OR keeping the RC boat to port, but you need to pick
> one and do it. That sounds like bounding to me. The last sentence of
> SI 9 quoted above sure sounds like the "unwinding" rule, which also
> leads me to believe it bounds the leg.
>
> Second question:
>
> Let's assume for the moment that the consensus is right, and the other
> boat didn't have to do a 360 because it's not a mark. Does this also
> mean we didn't owe them room? As the situation evolved above, they
> were the leeward boat, so it wasn't an issue, but let's say we were
> both on starboard, they were the windward boat and needed to foot off
> to clear the pin. Would I be within my rights to pinch up and deny
> them room to get below the pin? Since there's navigable water on all
> sides, it's not an obstruction, so I don't think rule 18 applies. The
> definition is:
>
>> Obstruction: An object that a boat could not pass without changing
>> course substantially, if she were sailing directly towards it and
>> one of her hull lengths from it. An object that can be safely passed
>> on only one side and an area so designated by the sailing
>> instructions are also obstructions. However, a boat racing is not an
>> obstruction to other boats unless they are required to keep clear of
>> her, give her room or, if rule 21 applies, avoid her.
>
> The sailing instructions define "restricted areas", but don't say that
> they are obstructions. It might be reasonable to assume that they
> are, but it doesn't actually say that.
>
> I know it's pretty common to have "don't go through the start-finish
> line" rules. How do other sailing instructions word them to avoid
> these ambiguities?
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