radar questions

There is a review on radars in practical sailor recently. Their high
pick was the furuno 1725(?) I had it a liked it.

Bob

Charlie Morgan wrote:
> On 7 Nov 2006 10:29:11 -0800, "luc" <lucede.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I read in Practical Sailor about radar, and their reccomendations were
> >the Furuno 1715 (? I think), and not rated as good was the 1623. I
> >have a race boat, and want a radar, but as small and light as possible.
> > While sailing aboard Derek Baylis, a Wylie Cat 65 this past weekend, I
> >asked the captain what he thought of the 1623, since that is what was
> >on board. He answered that it was the worst piece of junk for a radar
> >he's ever seen, and he has much experience. Here I was ready to buy
> >one, but now not so sure about the 1623.
> >
> >A few questions. Is there another small radar that is good? Is the
> >quality of the radar directly related to the size of the radome? What
> >are the pros and cons of locating a radar on short mast aft, as many
> >cruisers have, or on the main mast of a sloop?
> >
> >thanks for any help,
> >
> >Luc
>
> The 1623 is a very good quality, but small and basic, RADAR. It would
> help to know precisely why that captain didn't like it. He may be
> comparing it to very large, open array equipped commercial boat RADAR.
> No smaller RADAR with a covered array is going to compete with that.
> That doesn't make the smaller units junk, though.
>
> What kind of situations do you encounter that RADAR seems like it
> would be helpful. Do you cruise as well as race? What sort of areas as
> far as traffic, and general conditions?
>
> CWM
 >> Stay informed about: radar questions 

There is a review on radars in practical sailor recently. Their high
pick was the furuno 1725(?) I had it a liked it.

Bob

Charlie Morgan wrote:
> On 7 Nov 2006 10:29:11 -0800, "luc" <lucede.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I read in Practical Sailor about radar, and their reccomendations were
> >the Furuno 1715 (? I think), and not rated as good was the 1623. I
> >have a race boat, and want a radar, but as small and light as possible.
> > While sailing aboard Derek Baylis, a Wylie Cat 65 this past weekend, I
> >asked the captain what he thought of the 1623, since that is what was
> >on board. He answered that it was the worst piece of junk for a radar
> >he's ever seen, and he has much experience. Here I was ready to buy
> >one, but now not so sure about the 1623.
> >
> >A few questions. Is there another small radar that is good? Is the
> >quality of the radar directly related to the size of the radome? What
> >are the pros and cons of locating a radar on short mast aft, as many
> >cruisers have, or on the main mast of a sloop?
> >
> >thanks for any help,
> >
> >Luc
>
> The 1623 is a very good quality, but small and basic, RADAR. It would
> help to know precisely why that captain didn't like it. He may be
> comparing it to very large, open array equipped commercial boat RADAR.
> No smaller RADAR with a covered array is going to compete with that.
> That doesn't make the smaller units junk, though.
>
> What kind of situations do you encounter that RADAR seems like it
> would be helpful. Do you cruise as well as race? What sort of areas as
> far as traffic, and general conditions?
>
> CWM
 >> Stay informed about: radar questions 

There is a review on radars in practical sailor recently. Their high
pick was the furuno 1725(?) I had it a liked it.

Bob

Charlie Morgan wrote:
> On 7 Nov 2006 10:29:11 -0800, "luc" <lucede.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I read in Practical Sailor about radar, and their reccomendations were
> >the Furuno 1715 (? I think), and not rated as good was the 1623. I
> >have a race boat, and want a radar, but as small and light as possible.
> > While sailing aboard Derek Baylis, a Wylie Cat 65 this past weekend, I
> >asked the captain what he thought of the 1623, since that is what was
> >on board. He answered that it was the worst piece of junk for a radar
> >he's ever seen, and he has much experience. Here I was ready to buy
> >one, but now not so sure about the 1623.
> >
> >A few questions. Is there another small radar that is good? Is the
> >quality of the radar directly related to the size of the radome? What
> >are the pros and cons of locating a radar on short mast aft, as many
> >cruisers have, or on the main mast of a sloop?
> >
> >thanks for any help,
> >
> >Luc
>
> The 1623 is a very good quality, but small and basic, RADAR. It would
> help to know precisely why that captain didn't like it. He may be
> comparing it to very large, open array equipped commercial boat RADAR.
> No smaller RADAR with a covered array is going to compete with that.
> That doesn't make the smaller units junk, though.
>
> What kind of situations do you encounter that RADAR seems like it
> would be helpful. Do you cruise as well as race? What sort of areas as
> far as traffic, and general conditions?
>
> CWM
 >> Stay informed about: radar questions 

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 >> Stay informed about: radar questions 

luc wrote: " I have a race boat, and want a radar, but as small and
light as possible"

Luc,

Your concerns/focus are misdirected if your going to focus on small and
light. With a race boat, if your going to do it at all, you should make
it (a) worth doing, e.g. insure your going to get performance you can
use and in doing so consider a 4kw unit (better to see other sailboats
most of which have an unbelieably weak radar return) and a color
chartplotter (radar overlays gps map) to make it more probable you can
make use of the image (b) focus on insuring the radar unit dosn't foul
the sails or add to much weight aloft, e.g. consider mounting the radar
on a pole (adds even more weight) off the stern or mount off the
backstay or if on the mast put a ring around it so your sails or
halyards wont get caught on it, and (c) realize that the weight of the
radome is really inconsequential compared to the mounting hardware and
chartplotter, and inconsequential compared to distorting your wind
instrument results in light air or choppy seas if you mount it high up
in your mast (at a minimum it needs to be a couple of feet above your
boom, so your boom dosn't get caught in the radar return)

My next radar is going to be 4kw, because I am just amazed how my 2kw
can get a strong return from a childs mylar baloon sitting on the
surface of the sea, and is entirely blind to 40 foot and smaller
sailboats, as well as many motor boats.

One thing I am glad I did with my radar, is put it on a self leveling
mount, so I can use it under sail.

Dan





luc wrote:
> I read in Practical Sailor about radar, and their reccomendations were
> the Furuno 1715 (? I think), and not rated as good was the 1623. I
> have a race boat, and want a radar, but as small and light as possible.
> While sailing aboard Derek Baylis, a Wylie Cat 65 this past weekend, I
> asked the captain what he thought of the 1623, since that is what was
> on board. He answered that it was the worst piece of junk for a radar
> he's ever seen, and he has much experience. Here I was ready to buy
> one, but now not so sure about the 1623.
>
> A few questions. Is there another small radar that is good? Is the
> quality of the radar directly related to the size of the radome? What
> are the pros and cons of locating a radar on short mast aft, as many
> cruisers have, or on the main mast of a sloop?
>
> thanks for any help,
>
> Luc
 >> Stay informed about: radar questions 

luc wrote: " I have a race boat, and want a radar, but as small and
light as possible"

Luc,

Your concerns/focus are misdirected if your going to focus on small and
light. With a race boat, if your going to do it at all, you should make
it (a) worth doing, e.g. insure your going to get performance you can
use and in doing so consider a 4kw unit (better to see other sailboats
most of which have an unbelieably weak radar return) and a color
chartplotter (radar overlays gps map) to make it more probable you can
make use of the image (b) focus on insuring the radar unit dosn't foul
the sails or add to much weight aloft, e.g. consider mounting the radar
on a pole (adds even more weight) off the stern or mount off the
backstay or if on the mast put a ring around it so your sails or
halyards wont get caught on it, and (c) realize that the weight of the
radome is really inconsequential compared to the mounting hardware and
chartplotter, and inconsequential compared to distorting your wind
instrument results in light air or choppy seas if you mount it high up
in your mast (at a minimum it needs to be a couple of feet above your
boom, so your boom dosn't get caught in the radar return)

My next radar is going to be 4kw, because I am just amazed how my 2kw
can get a strong return from a childs mylar baloon sitting on the
surface of the sea, and is entirely blind to 40 foot and smaller
sailboats, as well as many motor boats.

One thing I am glad I did with my radar, is put it on a self leveling
mount, so I can use it under sail.

Dan





luc wrote:
> I read in Practical Sailor about radar, and their reccomendations were
> the Furuno 1715 (? I think), and not rated as good was the 1623. I
> have a race boat, and want a radar, but as small and light as possible.
> While sailing aboard Derek Baylis, a Wylie Cat 65 this past weekend, I
> asked the captain what he thought of the 1623, since that is what was
> on board. He answered that it was the worst piece of junk for a radar
> he's ever seen, and he has much experience. Here I was ready to buy
> one, but now not so sure about the 1623.
>
> A few questions. Is there another small radar that is good? Is the
> quality of the radar directly related to the size of the radome? What
> are the pros and cons of locating a radar on short mast aft, as many
> cruisers have, or on the main mast of a sloop?
>
> thanks for any help,
>
> Luc
 >> Stay informed about: radar questions 

luc wrote: " I have a race boat, and want a radar, but as small and
light as possible"

Luc,

Your concerns/focus are misdirected if your going to focus on small and
light. With a race boat, if your going to do it at all, you should make
it (a) worth doing, e.g. insure your going to get performance you can
use and in doing so consider a 4kw unit (better to see other sailboats
most of which have an unbelieably weak radar return) and a color
chartplotter (radar overlays gps map) to make it more probable you can
make use of the image (b) focus on insuring the radar unit dosn't foul
the sails or add to much weight aloft, e.g. consider mounting the radar
on a pole (adds even more weight) off the stern or mount off the
backstay or if on the mast put a ring around it so your sails or
halyards wont get caught on it, and (c) realize that the weight of the
radome is really inconsequential compared to the mounting hardware and
chartplotter, and inconsequential compared to distorting your wind
instrument results in light air or choppy seas if you mount it high up
in your mast (at a minimum it needs to be a couple of feet above your
boom, so your boom dosn't get caught in the radar return)

My next radar is going to be 4kw, because I am just amazed how my 2kw
can get a strong return from a childs mylar baloon sitting on the
surface of the sea, and is entirely blind to 40 foot and smaller
sailboats, as well as many motor boats.

One thing I am glad I did with my radar, is put it on a self leveling
mount, so I can use it under sail.

Dan





luc wrote:
> I read in Practical Sailor about radar, and their reccomendations were
> the Furuno 1715 (? I think), and not rated as good was the 1623. I
> have a race boat, and want a radar, but as small and light as possible.
> While sailing aboard Derek Baylis, a Wylie Cat 65 this past weekend, I
> asked the captain what he thought of the 1623, since that is what was
> on board. He answered that it was the worst piece of junk for a radar
> he's ever seen, and he has much experience. Here I was ready to buy
> one, but now not so sure about the 1623.
>
> A few questions. Is there another small radar that is good? Is the
> quality of the radar directly related to the size of the radome? What
> are the pros and cons of locating a radar on short mast aft, as many
> cruisers have, or on the main mast of a sloop?
>
> thanks for any help,
>
> Luc
 >> Stay informed about: radar questions 

luc wrote: " I have a race boat, and want a radar, but as small and
light as possible"

Luc,

Your concerns/focus are misdirected if your going to focus on small and
light. With a race boat, if your going to do it at all, you should make
it (a) worth doing, e.g. insure your going to get performance you can
use and in doing so consider a 4kw unit (better to see other sailboats
most of which have an unbelieably weak radar return) and a color
chartplotter (radar overlays gps map) to make it more probable you can
make use of the image (b) focus on insuring the radar unit dosn't foul
the sails or add to much weight aloft, e.g. consider mounting the radar
on a pole (adds even more weight) off the stern or mount off the
backstay or if on the mast put a ring around it so your sails or
halyards wont get caught on it, and (c) realize that the weight of the
radome is really inconsequential compared to the mounting hardware and
chartplotter, and inconsequential compared to distorting your wind
instrument results in light air or choppy seas if you mount it high up
in your mast (at a minimum it needs to be a couple of feet above your
boom, so your boom dosn't get caught in the radar return)

My next radar is going to be 4kw, because I am just amazed how my 2kw
can get a strong return from a childs mylar baloon sitting on the
surface of the sea, and is entirely blind to 40 foot and smaller
sailboats, as well as many motor boats.

One thing I am glad I did with my radar, is put it on a self leveling
mount, so I can use it under sail.

Dan





luc wrote:
> I read in Practical Sailor about radar, and their reccomendations were
> the Furuno 1715 (? I think), and not rated as good was the 1623. I
> have a race boat, and want a radar, but as small and light as possible.
> While sailing aboard Derek Baylis, a Wylie Cat 65 this past weekend, I
> asked the captain what he thought of the 1623, since that is what was
> on board. He answered that it was the worst piece of junk for a radar
> he's ever seen, and he has much experience. Here I was ready to buy
> one, but now not so sure about the 1623.
>
> A few questions. Is there another small radar that is good? Is the
> quality of the radar directly related to the size of the radome? What
> are the pros and cons of locating a radar on short mast aft, as many
> cruisers have, or on the main mast of a sloop?
>
> thanks for any help,
>
> Luc
 >> Stay informed about: radar questions 

luc wrote:
> I read in Practical Sailor about radar, and their reccomendations were
> the Furuno 1715 (? I think), and not rated as good was the 1623. I
> have a race boat, and want a radar, but as small and light as possible.
> While sailing aboard Derek Baylis, a Wylie Cat 65 this past weekend, I
> asked the captain what he thought of the 1623, since that is what was
> on board. He answered that it was the worst piece of junk for a radar
> he's ever seen, and he has much experience. Here I was ready to buy
> one, but now not so sure about the 1623.
>
> A few questions. Is there another small radar that is good? Is the
> quality of the radar directly related to the size of the radome? What
> are the pros and cons of locating a radar on short mast aft, as many
> cruisers have, or on the main mast of a sloop?
>
> thanks for any help,
>
> Luc
>
Hi Luc,

The size of the radar antenna is very much related to the ability to get
good "resolution". There are many different examples, here are a couple:
A small gap looks like straight land line (until you get very close),
Two nearby boats or objects looks like one single boat. Objects apear
bigger than they are.

There is a value in the specs that you can search for. Its called
Horizontal Beamwidth in english. The bigger the antenna the higher the
liklyhood that this value is small. The smaller the value the less
extended objects will appear on the screen - the better the resolution.

You will probably find radomes with values between 3 and 7 degrees. You
dont need to bother too much about the vertical beamwidth. Its usally
arround 20+ degrees. Watch out if it gets much lower since you might
then have difficulties getting a good reading in a small boat during
high sea.

Garmin GMR21 radome horizontal beamwidth = 3,6 degrees.
Garmin GMR404 open array horizontal beamwidth = 1,1 degrees.

I would of course like to have the 1,1 degrees but it would come at a
very high cost and a very bulky antenna. One that you can hit your head
on when it spins (yes this happens more often than one would think) and
wouldnt work well on most sail boats.

there are of course other aspects as well. How well they push back the
side lobes and how fast the pulse rate can be and that the pulse rate
changes with the range setting. Oh yeah, how fast they rotate. The
faster you go on the water the faster you want the radar to spin, since
this affects how fast your screen image will upate. Low-end radars
update once ever two seconds (it actually updates all the time but it
takes two seconds for the radar to update the whole image from 0 - 360
degrees).

Automatic tune, gain, rain clutter and sea clutter can be good but
people who dont like to rely on this probably want solid knobs they can
use to change these values, not having to dig arround in menus.

The "worst" radar I have tried was some sort of no-name radar with black
and white lcd screen and probabaly a horizontal beamwidth of 7 degrees.
The shorest range was 0.250nm. But it still worked great and did the job
in the fog! Its sooo much better than no radar at all

I dont know if you will be using the radar in-doors or out-doors. Maybe
that will affect the type of screen you go for. Night time there's no
problem with sunlight that would normaly cause a problem for LCD's. But
I dont really know because all the LCD's I've used was indoors.

Regards
david
 >> Stay informed about: radar questions 

luc wrote:
> I read in Practical Sailor about radar, and their reccomendations were
> the Furuno 1715 (? I think), and not rated as good was the 1623. I
> have a race boat, and want a radar, but as small and light as possible.
> While sailing aboard Derek Baylis, a Wylie Cat 65 this past weekend, I
> asked the captain what he thought of the 1623, since that is what was
> on board. He answered that it was the worst piece of junk for a radar
> he's ever seen, and he has much experience. Here I was ready to buy
> one, but now not so sure about the 1623.
>
> A few questions. Is there another small radar that is good? Is the
> quality of the radar directly related to the size of the radome? What
> are the pros and cons of locating a radar on short mast aft, as many
> cruisers have, or on the main mast of a sloop?
>
> thanks for any help,
>
> Luc
>
Hi Luc,

The size of the radar antenna is very much related to the ability to get
good "resolution". There are many different examples, here are a couple:
A small gap looks like straight land line (until you get very close),
Two nearby boats or objects looks like one single boat. Objects apear
bigger than they are.

There is a value in the specs that you can search for. Its called
Horizontal Beamwidth in english. The bigger the antenna the higher the
liklyhood that this value is small. The smaller the value the less
extended objects will appear on the screen - the better the resolution.

You will probably find radomes with values between 3 and 7 degrees. You
dont need to bother too much about the vertical beamwidth. Its usally
arround 20+ degrees. Watch out if it gets much lower since you might
then have difficulties getting a good reading in a small boat during
high sea.

Garmin GMR21 radome horizontal beamwidth = 3,6 degrees.
Garmin GMR404 open array horizontal beamwidth = 1,1 degrees.

I would of course like to have the 1,1 degrees but it would come at a
very high cost and a very bulky antenna. One that you can hit your head
on when it spins (yes this happens more often than one would think) and
wouldnt work well on most sail boats.

there are of course other aspects as well. How well they push back the
side lobes and how fast the pulse rate can be and that the pulse rate
changes with the range setting. Oh yeah, how fast they rotate. The
faster you go on the water the faster you want the radar to spin, since
this affects how fast your screen image will upate. Low-end radars
update once ever two seconds (it actually updates all the time but it
takes two seconds for the radar to update the whole image from 0 - 360
degrees).

Automatic tune, gain, rain clutter and sea clutter can be good but
people who dont like to rely on this probably want solid knobs they can
use to change these values, not having to dig arround in menus.

The "worst" radar I have tried was some sort of no-name radar with black
and white lcd screen and probabaly a horizontal beamwidth of 7 degrees.
The shorest range was 0.250nm. But it still worked great and did the job
in the fog! Its sooo much better than no radar at all

I dont know if you will be using the radar in-doors or out-doors. Maybe
that will affect the type of screen you go for. Night time there's no
problem with sunlight that would normaly cause a problem for LCD's. But
I dont really know because all the LCD's I've used was indoors.

Regards
david
 >> Stay informed about: radar questions