Using laminated veneer?

Many thanks, William

I have begun a few tests for adhesive qualities - you know: edge to edge
bonding to see which fails first, the joint or the wood.

What I wanted to know was the suitability of smearing the construction glue
between layers of each veneer ply as is applied to the layer underneath. I
don't know how to evaluate that.

Regards,

Joseph

AJ1J.TakeThisOut@arrl.net


"William R. Watt" <ag384.TakeThisOut@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:bsetsc$n3$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
 > "jotis" (charles.river@rcn.com) writes:
  > > Hello -
  > >
  > > I would like to build a dinghy or small sailboat using the cold-molded
  > > plywood method, sometimes called laminated veneer.
  > > 4. Adhesives - must if be epoxy? How about using the "construction"
types
  > > glues?
 >
 > for a small boat kept under cover when not in use the construction
 > polyurethane or the plastic resin (urea formaldehyde) are okay. the
 > plastic resin has to be a tight fit and over 70 deg F to cure. I've used
 > both on small plywood boats (not cold moulded). I don't have many clamps
and
 > prefer to screw-and-glue instead for gunwales, chines, etc. TF Jones
 > wrties about a cold moulded kayak bottom made with cedar veneer and
 > plastic resin which was still tight after 9 years. It was kept in a shed
 > when not in use.
 >
 > you can test glues by buying small quantities and gluing up small pieces.
 > I normally do that with any new building method or material.
 > --
 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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<font color=purple> > homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font</a>>
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 >> Stay informed about: Using laminated veneer? 

The veneer cold-molding process is well documented in the Gougeon book.
(Western red) cedar veneer was the preferred material. Eventually, it was
figured out that the addition of a light fiberglass skinn was needed to protect
the soft cedar. The strip canoe folks figured out that if there was a
structural glass skin on both sides, multiple layers of wood core weren't
necessary and the skins gave adequate 'thwartship strength. So, for boats under
thirty feet, cold-molding with veneers has been largely replaced by strip
composite construction. Less labor, cheaper materials, equal product.
That's why it's now hard to find cedar veneers.


jotis wrote:

 > Hello -
 >
 > I would like to build a dinghy or small sailboat using the cold-molded
 > plywood method, sometimes called laminated veneer.
 >
 > I have looked a couple of books (Ruel Parker's and Hub Miller), but their
 > emphasis seems to be on large yachts. Since I want to make a small boat,
 > neither book answers the questions about ;
 >
 > 1. Selection of veneer, ie, wood type, appropriate thickness, number of plys
 > (plies?), etc.
 >
 > 2. Mold method set-ups which are more suited to small boats.
 >
 > 3. The best method for making and setting up stems and transoms.
 >
 > 4. Adhesives - must if be epoxy? How about using the "construction" types
 > glues?
 >
 > 5. General "comfort talk" to aspiring cold-molders.
 >
 > Can anybody help? Your specific suggegestions or references will be greatly
 > appreciated.
 >
 > Thanks,
 >
 > Joseph
 >
 > AJ1J RemoveThis @arrl.net<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Using laminated veneer? 

Hello Jim-

Thank you for your very interesting analysis of why it is so difficult to
get much information about cold-molding; it looks like it has become
obsolete. Nevertheless, the process appears to be so fascinating that I hate
to discard the idea altogether.

Frankly, one of the benefits that I perceived with cold-molding was that it
would not require a skin of fiberglass (the very thought of which makes my
skin quiver), but I am coming to realize that and education - and some
experience with - fiberglass is becoming a necessity.

There is a good deal of information about strip planking around, and will
reconsider that mode of construction.

Thanks again,

Joseph

AJ1J.TakeThisOut@arrl.net


"Jim Conlin" <conlin.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3FEB3790.649D9489@comcast.net...
 > The veneer cold-molding process is well documented in the Gougeon book.
 > (Western red) cedar veneer was the preferred material. Eventually, it was
 > figured out that the addition of a light fiberglass skinn was needed to
protect
 > the soft cedar. The strip canoe folks figured out that if there was a
 > structural glass skin on both sides, multiple layers of wood core weren't
 > necessary and the skins gave adequate 'thwartship strength. So, for boats
under
 > thirty feet, cold-molding with veneers has been largely replaced by strip
 > composite construction. Less labor, cheaper materials, equal product.
 > That's why it's now hard to find cedar veneers.
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Using laminated veneer? 

"jotis" (charles.river@rcn.com) writes:

 > What I wanted to know was the suitability of smearing the construction glue
 > between layers of each veneer ply as is applied to the layer underneath. I
 > don't know how to evaluate that.

I've laminated doorskin lauan ("mahogony") plywood with PL Premium. There
is a photo on my website under "Boats", "folding cabin". You squeeze a
bead on with the caulking gun and then spread it with a putty knife or
similar. I've never made a cold moulded hull. If you are cold moulding
there would likely not be enough stiffness in the first layer of veneer to
spread it on the hull so you would spread the adhesive on the second layer
strip instead. I laminated the transom of the Dogskiff on my website with
plastic resin glue. Only photos of the finished boat on the website for
that one. The boat was launched spring of1999 and the transom is fine.

A guy named Steve Ladd built a 12 ft cold moulded cedar and fibreglass
boat called "Squeak" for $2000 in 1990 and spent 3 years sailing it in the
USA and South America. The boat was decked over with a cockpit and weighed
250 pounds. There are some photos on the Intenet. His book is called
"Three Years in a Twelve Foot Boat". the book does not describe building
the boat.

BTW the specially cut cedar strips for "stripper" construction are pretty
expensive compared to cutting your own strips of plywood veneer for cold
moulding. You also need moulds 12-14 inches apart because the strips are
so flexible. They have little strength of their own. That comes from the
fibreglass that goes over them. You can compare prices. I think you can
find stripper prices at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bearmountianboats.com." target="_blank">www.bearmountianboats.com.</a>

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 >> Stay informed about: Using laminated veneer? 

"jotis" <charles.river DeleteThis @rcn.com> wrote in message news:<3feb78a1$0$4740$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>...
 > Hello Jim-
 >
 > Thank you for your very interesting analysis of why it is so difficult to
 > get much information about cold-molding; it looks like it has become
 > obsolete. Nevertheless, the process appears to be so fascinating that I hate
 > to discard the idea altogether.
 >
 > Frankly, one of the benefits that I perceived with cold-molding was that it
 > would not require a skin of fiberglass (the very thought of which makes my
 > skin quiver), but I am coming to realize that and education - and some
 > experience with - fiberglass is becoming a necessity.

Here is an area I can address in this thread... Oh goody! Anyway, this
should not be a point of anxiety (sp?). With the Epoxy technology and
calibrated pumps, this is only a question of patience and preperation.
The main thing is to prepare the surface properly first. Then cut out
your fiberglass, leaving a couple of inches extra all the way around.
Next roll up one side of the glass and spread a slightly thickened
layer of epoxy in it's place (this can be done easily with a
disposable paint roller). Next roll the glass back over the wet area,
and start to wet out the glass with the same paint roller and a
unthickened layer of epoxy. Next, roll up the other side of the glass,
and do the same thing. Remember, it is a lot easier to draw goo up
through glass than it is to drive it down in. Typically, I apply
probably 75% of the goo I will use in an area, before the fabric is
laid down, then draw it up through the glass. This may seem elementry
to some but I always mention it as it took me close to a year to
figure this out, of course when I did, I felt like a real dolt
Really, using pumps, paint rollers and proper preperation, glassing a
small hull can actually be one of the easiest parts of building a
boat. Did not say most fun, just easiest.
Scotty from SmallBoats.com


 > There is a good deal of information about strip planking around, and will
 > reconsider that mode of construction.
 >
 > Thanks again,
 >
 > Joseph
 >
 > AJ1J DeleteThis @arrl.net
 >
 >
 > "Jim Conlin" <conlin DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
 > news:3FEB3790.649D9489@comcast.net...
  > > The veneer cold-molding process is well documented in the Gougeon book.
  > > (Western red) cedar veneer was the preferred material. Eventually, it was
  > > figured out that the addition of a light fiberglass skinn was needed to
 > protect
  > > the soft cedar. The strip canoe folks figured out that if there was a
  > > structural glass skin on both sides, multiple layers of wood core weren't
  > > necessary and the skins gave adequate 'thwartship strength. So, for boats
 > under
  > > thirty feet, cold-molding with veneers has been largely replaced by strip
  > > composite construction. Less labor, cheaper materials, equal product.
  > > That's why it's now hard to find cedar veneers.
  > ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Using laminated veneer? 

"jotis" <charles.river.RemoveThis@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:3feaf1fb$0$4742$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...
 > Hello -
 >
 > I would like to build a dinghy or small sailboat using the cold-molded
 > plywood method, sometimes called laminated veneer.
 >
 > I have looked a couple of books (Ruel Parker's and Hub Miller), but their
 > emphasis seems to be on large yachts. Since I want to make a small boat,
 > neither book answers the questions about ;
 >
 > 1. Selection of veneer, ie, wood type, appropriate thickness, number of
plys
 > (plies?), etc.
 >
 > 2. Mold method set-ups which are more suited to small boats.
 >
 > 3. The best method for making and setting up stems and transoms.
 >
 > 4. Adhesives - must if be epoxy? How about using the "construction" types
 > glues?
 >
 > 5. General "comfort talk" to aspiring cold-molders.
 >
 > Can anybody help? Your specific suggegestions or references will be
greatly
 > appreciated.
 >
 > Thanks,
 >
 > Joseph
 >
 > AJ1J.RemoveThis@arrl.net
 >
 >
 >

The Mirror sailing/rowing/small outboard design uses 1/8" plywood and very
basic cold moulding. hard Chines, etc. Plenty of websites and plans
available. Its not a multi laminate with cross plys.

I've been experimenting with three western red cedar strips of 1/8" thick by
1" wide interlaced with carbon fibre and epoxy. A 3' length will support me
at 100kgs and is very rigid.

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 >> Stay informed about: Using laminated veneer? 

Hello Scotty-

Many thanks for the clearly expressed information.

I hope it really is as easy as you make it out to be.

Regards,

Joseph

 >
 > Here is an area I can address in this thread... Oh goody! Anyway, this
 > should not be a point of anxiety (sp?). With the Epoxy technology and
 > calibrated pumps, this is only a question of patience and preperation.
 > The main thing is to prepare the surface properly first. Then cut out
 > your fiberglass, leaving a couple of inches extra all the way around.
 > Next roll up one side of the glass and spread a slightly thickened
 > layer of epoxy in it's place (this can be done easily with a
 > disposable paint roller). Next roll the glass back over the wet area,
 > and start to wet out the glass with the same paint roller and a
 > unthickened layer of epoxy. Next, roll up the other side of the glass,
 > and do the same thing. Remember, it is a lot easier to draw goo up
 > through glass than it is to drive it down in. Typically, I apply
 > probably 75% of the goo I will use in an area, before the fabric is
 > laid down, then draw it up through the glass. This may seem elementry
 > to some but I always mention it as it took me close to a year to
 > figure this out, of course when I did, I felt like a real dolt
 > Really, using pumps, paint rollers and proper preperation, glassing a
 > small hull can actually be one of the easiest parts of building a
 > boat. Did not say most fun, just easiest.
 > Scotty from SmallBoats.com
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Using laminated veneer? 

In article <3feaf1fb$0$4742$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>, jotis
<charles.river RemoveThis @rcn.com> writes
 >Hello -
 >
 >I would like to build a dinghy or small sailboat using the cold-molded
 >plywood method, sometimes called laminated veneer.
 >
I built a cold-moulded 11 foot International moth class dinghy about 30
years ago.

 >I have looked a couple of books (Ruel Parker's and Hub Miller), but their
 >emphasis seems to be on large yachts. Since I want to make a small boat,
 >neither book answers the questions about ;
 >
 >1. Selection of veneer, ie, wood type, appropriate thickness, number of plys
 >(plies?), etc

In above case, 3-ply - 1mm sapele veneer outer, 2.5 mm gaboon core, 1mm
sapele inner.
 >.
 >
 >2. Mold method set-ups which are more suited to small boats.
 >
 >3. The best method for making and setting up stems and transoms.
 >
Built upside down, male mould. Stem, keel/centreboard case, and transom
formed part of the mould. Remainder was 1.5" x 3/4" softwood battens
(roofing battens), over formers 18" apart. Fair it all up with a plane.
Put clingfilm over the softwood battens to prevent adhesion.

Staple veneers to keel/mould at 45 degrees to centreline. (other
configurations are possible). Spile edges of veneers so they fit tightly
to each other. Repeat with next veneer layer at 45 degrees the other
way, this time with glue (wetting out both veneer surfaces with a
flexible trowel). Allow to cure. Remove staples and do outer layer.
Remove more staples, glue on external gunwale, and then prise hull from
mould, being thankful that you were thorough at the clingfilm stage.

I used 47,000 staples for an 11 foot boat. I know because I used nine
and a half packets of 5,000 staples. Removing them takes a while, even
after using little veneer pads to staple through. And then you have to
fill all the little holes with mahogany filler, varnishing doesn't fill
them.

You could use less staples (just for positioning the planks) and use
vacuum bagging instead.

 >4. Adhesives - must if be epoxy? How about using the "construction" types
 >glues?

Resorcinal (eg Aerodux® etc) or epoxy.
 >
 >5. General "comfort talk" to aspiring cold-molders.
 >
Its old, labour-intensive technology. Especially if you are only
building one hull.

 >Can anybody help? Your specific suggegestions or references will be greatly
 >appreciated.

Don't do it ...

Cedar strip with epoxy/glass skins is less work, and IMO can produce an
aesthetically and structurally equivalent (or even superior) end result
if well done, compared with cold moulding.


--
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 >> Stay informed about: Using laminated veneer? 

Mark Dunlop (mark@nospam.demon.co.uk) writes:

 > I used 47,000 staples for an 11 foot boat. I know because I used nine
 > and a half packets of 5,000 staples. Removing them takes a while, even
 > after using little veneer pads to staple through. And then you have to
 > fill all the little holes with mahogany filler, varnishing doesn't fill
 > them.

I read that it helps to staple over string so the string can be used to
pull up the staples.
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 >> Stay informed about: Using laminated veneer? 

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 14:46:43 -0500, "jotis" <charles.river.RemoveThis@rcn.com>
wrote something
.......and in reply I say!:

Remember, it took that "dolt" a year to learn how! <GG>

I would defintely "waste" some epoxy and glass on a sheet of ply
(maybe it's a table for outdorrs or something, or nothing at all) and
get good unpanicked results, before touching all those hours of work
called a boat, stripper or cold moulded.



 >Hello Scotty-
 >
 >Many thanks for the clearly expressed information.
 >
 >I hope it really is as easy as you make it out to be.
 >
 >Regards,
 >
 >Joseph
 >

**************************************************** sorry
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

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causing it all.
But then I was terrified that maybe there was no plan,
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 >> Stay informed about: Using laminated veneer?