What other kayaks should I be looking at?

"Michael Daly" (michaelDaly@foo.bar) writes:

 > Thanks for proving the point, WIlly boy.

okay, but no more sex for you until you take the lessons and have the
certificate.

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 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

 >ag384@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (William R. Watt)

rants in >Message-ID: <cfigq8$1ks$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>

 >hese fellows have backpaddled, dropping "certified" and "manditory" from
 >their claims, and now concur with my position. they continue to overstate
 >their claim for the advantages of "lessons" but that can be tolerated as
 >an error in generalization and a

 >matter of misinformed opinion. at least
 >they are no longer classifing themseves with Tim and his proposal for
 >manditory sponson legislation.
 >

I'm not aware of any mandatory training or skill certification in the US. The
is certification for instructors, but none of that is mandatory unless you want
to advertize your class as instructed by an American Canoe Association
certified instructor. The BIG reason that Swiftwater Rescue Instructors are
certified in liability,insurance and this little thing we call down here
Standard of Care. Except on the professional rescue side, we don't certify
students that participate in a SWR class. I am a ACA SWR instructor, but I
teach novice and intermediate level kayaking without any official
certification.

I paddled open canoe for many years on flat and whitewater before I took a
formal class. Wow, he changed my style of paddling and I felt my skill level
jumped at least a class in two days.

This last weekend I instructed a group of intermediate paddlers, several that
had been paddling for several years without any formal training. Half of my
time was spent trying to break bad habits they had developed trying to teach
themselves, like why it is better to enter an eddy on a forward stroke and why
it is more effective to do correction strokes in the front of the boat.


SYOTR
Larry C.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

lrcable.RemoveThis@aol.comnospam (Larry Cable) typed:

  > >ag384@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (William R. Watt)
 >
 > rants in >Message-ID: <cfigq8$1ks$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>
 >
  > >hese fellows have backpaddled, dropping "certified" and "manditory" from
  > >their claims, and now concur with my position.

Larry, how can one have a reasonable discussion when the idiot types
something like this? The words "certified" and "manditory" appeared
in exactly NONE of my messages, and Wilko made merely the passing
reference "I wouldn't stare myself blind on his certification, but
wonder instead what wisdom and experience he has to offer".

He also seems to interpret as concurrence with his position my remark
that I would respect and admire his solo exploits, but that I cannot
respect the way he urges novices (who don't have his from-the-cradle
experience) to get out on the river unprepared. This was certainly
not concurrence.

There is no arguing with someone who puts words in yer keyboard, but
cannot understand the words you actually DO type, so I don't bother
"discussing" with the silly fool, and I urge you to ignore him too.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty


PS, I'm now living less than two hours from Bluefield, WV, which is on
my route to the Russell Fork. If you do an Upper Russel Fork trip
this Fall, I'd really like to join you. It's bin awhile, eh? -R

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pre></ font><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

lrcable DeleteThis @aol.comnospam (Larry Cable) wrote in
news:20040817063906.16791.00002760@mb-m20.aol.com:

  >>ag384@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (William R. Watt)
 >
 > rants in >Message-ID: <cfigq8$1ks$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>
 >
  >>hese fellows have backpaddled, dropping "certified" and "manditory"
  >>from their claims, and now concur with my position. they continue to
  >>overstate their claim for the advantages of "lessons" but that can be
  >>tolerated as an error in generalization and a
 >
  >>matter of misinformed opinion. at least
  >>they are no longer classifing themseves with Tim and his proposal for
  >>manditory sponson legislation.
  >>
 >
 > I'm not aware of any mandatory training or skill certification in the
 > US. The is certification for instructors, but none of that is mandatory
 > unless you want to advertize your class as instructed by an American
 > Canoe Association certified instructor.

Are you sure about that? I believe Maine has some certification
requirements for guiding tours and someone recently told me that a
certification is only necessary in NY if you lead overnight trips.
Obviously, anyone can lead anyone else on an informal trip but it may be
that once money is involved that there are legal requirements.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

 >John Fereira jaf30.DeleteThis@cornell.edu

Typed in >Message-ID: <Xns9548B93A8B87jaf30cornelledu.DeleteThis@24.24.2.167>

  >> I'm not aware of any mandatory training or skill certification in the
  >> US. The is certification for instructors, but none of that is mandatory
  >> unless you want to advertize your class as instructed by an American
  >> Canoe Association certified instructor.

 >Are you sure about that? I believe Maine has some certification
 >requirements for guiding tours and someone recently told me that a
 >certification is only necessary in NY if you lead overnight trips.
 >Obviously, anyone can lead anyone else on an informal trip but it may be
 >that once money is involved that

 >here are legal requirements.
 >

There are many states that have requirements for outdoor professionals, for
example, a raft guide, etc. But I'm not aware of any government requirement for
certification to teach canoe or kayaking in any state. Many organizations,
professional and non-profit, want instructors certified by ACA or ARC or even
their own certification program like the Boy Scouts, often for insurance and
liability reasons, but it still isn't required by any government agency that
I'm aware.
SYOTR
Larry C.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

It's long been the case that local guides licenced by the state or
province are available to those who want to hire them, usually fishermen
and hunters. They take sportsmen on canoe trips into the back country
where there are more fish and game. None have ever been certifed paddlers
to my knowledge buy they do know local conditions which is more important.
Many are aboriginal, your traditional "indian guide". They do not
generally subscribe to SeaKayaker magazine so they probably are ignorant
of the necessity of being introduced to paddling by certified paddling
instructors.

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 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

 >ag384@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (William R. Watt)

ranted in >Message-ID: <cfvom4$s06$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>

 >Many are aboriginal, your traditional "indian guide". They do not
 >generally subscribe to SeaKayaker magazine so they probably are ignorant
 >of the necessity of being introduced to paddling by certified paddling
 >instructors.

Gee, last time I was around an "indian guide" he was pushing a 17' semi v with
a 100 hp merc on it. Bet he didn't learn that from the elders of the tribe.

But to answer your somewhat obsessive remarks about certified instructors. No
one here has be pushing paddling certifications or stating that the only way to
learn is from a certified instructor. You are just flat implying something that
hasn't been said.
What has been said is that is it best to get competent instruction, and if you
think that you can seriously teach yourself better then you are delusional.

Native American paddlers are not self taught, they were taught by their elders
who had been brought up in a tradition of paddling. Sometimes this can be just
as formal a training as in school. Most Northwoods paddlers learned to paddle
from someone, whether it was family or friend. I've paddled for a lot of years,
I tried to teach myself to paddle an open canoe. I didn't really become
profiecent until I had the opportunity to learn from more experienced and
skilled paddlers.

SYOTR
Larry C.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at?