What other kayaks should I be looking at?

ptomblin+netnews@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) typed:
 >
 > [snip "which boat" question]
 >
 > Another question: How much should I budget for PFD, paddle and other
 > extras? I know how much I have to spend, and don't want to blow it all on
 > the boat and find myself with inadequate extras.

Paul, I cannot address yer major question because I am a whitewater
canoeist not a flatwater kayaker.

But WRT the second, when I teach Swiftwater Safety and Rescue classes,
we refer to the same American Canoe Association tabulation of U.S.
Coast Guard accident statistics as do touring kayakers. So I can
safely tell you to PLEASE not pay attention to Wm. Watt; he is a noted
Luddite and r.b.p crank. For his purpose, and the degree of risk he
is willing to accept (o blissful ignorance) the cheapest crap on the
market is fine. But there really is a reason that serious boaters buy
serious equipment.

A good PFD should cost you around US$ 80.00 - 120.00. Get a
well-fitting one, always wear it, and always have it strapped up
tight, so that if you have a swim-o unintendo it will not ride up
above yer face and interfere with your breathing and your motion.
Zippered pockets on a PFD are a GOOD thing. The PFD is for that rare
occasion when you really need it, and if that occurs, you don't want
valuable survival gear washing out of yer unzippered pants pockets.
Watt has the "it's good enough for me, it's good enough for anyone"
attitude. And as long as he doesn't have an out-of-boat experience in
a tidal rip or swift current, fine. But emergency preparations are
for EMERGENCIES, and a significant number -- a majority if I remember
correctly -- of drownings in the USCG database are of people who were
not wearing their PFDs or who did not have them zippered and buckled
when they fell in. We call these people unfortunate idiots when we
read the reports. When, eventually, we read the report of Watts'
drowning, we will call him simply an idiot, because God knows he was
fortunate enough to have been exposed to loads of safety advice here
on r.b.p., though he chooses to mock it because he hasn't (yet) needed
it. Get a good PFD.

As for a paddle, my friend Kathy Streletzky (AKA "Mothra") urges all
beginning boaters to get a cheap used boat 'cause yer soon gonna
discover a design that is more suitable, as you develop yer own
paddling style, but to get a very good paddle because it can make the
learning experience so much more pleasant. But for initial purpose,
for safety's sake, a US$80.00 Mohawk breakdown would be adequate until
you have had the chance to paddle in a group and try others' paddles a
few times, to get a really good idea of what you want.

You will also want a drybag for US$20 - 30, to keep yer lunch dry, and
you should take at least one self-rescue clinic, where they will show
you how to use a paddle-float and pump to recover from a capsize (I
dunno the cost of this stuff, since we don't use it in whitewater, but
I'm guessing you could get the pair for around US$40.00).

And I urge you to join a paddling club, where more experienced boaters
can give you pointers on safety and on paddling technique, can show
you various equipment options and let you try their boats and their
paddles, and -- most importantly -- be with you on a group trip the
first time you need to be rescued.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
======================================================================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
======================================================================<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

In a previous article, rhopley.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net (Oci-One Kanubi) said:
 >ptomblin+netnews@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) typed:
 >Coast Guard accident statistics as do touring kayakers. So I can
 >safely tell you to PLEASE not pay attention to Wm. Watt; he is a noted
 >Luddite and r.b.p crank. For his purpose, and the degree of risk he

I've been Watt's news administrator since the day he first discovered
Usenet - I'm quite familiar with exactly how much attention to pay him.

 >A good PFD should cost you around US$ 80.00 - 120.00. Get a

Most of the time the rental place gives me this cheap one that's kind of
"square", but every now and then they let me take this one that's
"triangular" (I don't know how better to describe it) and that one has
FAR more room around my shoulders and is easier to move in, so that's
probably the type I'll buy. The first time I used it, somebody had left a
mini-bottle of Poland Spring water (my favourite because it tastes a
little like Algonquin Park water) in a front pocket, which was nice.

Thanks for your advice.

--
Paul Tomblin <ptomblin.TakeThisOut@xcski.com> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/" target="_blank">http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/</a>
I would like to shake the hand of the man who first decided that e-mail
clients should run arbitrary programs. Then I'd like to stir, blend and
puree his hand. -- J. D. Baldwin<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

ptomblin+netnews@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) typed:

 > In a previous article, rhopley.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net (Oci-One Kanubi) said:
 >
  > >accident statistics as do touring kayakers. So I can safely
  > >tell you to PLEASE not pay attention to Wm. Watt; he is a noted
  > >Luddite and r.b.p crank. For his purpose, and the degree of risk
 >
 > I've been Watt's news administrator since the day he first discovered
 > Usenet - I'm quite familiar with exactly how much attention to pay him.


Tactfully expressed!


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
======================================================================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
======================================================================<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

rhopley.DeleteThis@earthlink.net (Oci-One Kanubi) wrote in message news:<5ef7701c.0408100827.51e5d13e.DeleteThis@posting.google.com>...

 > But for initial purpose,
 > for safety's sake, a US$80.00 Mohawk breakdown would be adequate

Dagnabit, you've gotta look mighty hard to find an error in a Kanubi
post, but I found one - A Mohawk breakdown runs $43.95 on their
website:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="https://mohawkcanoes.com/paddles.htm" target="_blank">https://mohawkcanoes.com/paddles.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

Oci-One Kanubi (rhopley@earthlink.net) writes:

 > But WRT the second, when I teach Swiftwater Safety and Rescue classes,
 > we refer to the same American Canoe Association tabulation of U.S.
 > Coast Guard accident statistics as do touring kayakers. So I can
 > safely tell you to PLEASE not pay attention to Wm. Watt; he is a noted
 > Luddite and r.b.p crank. For his purpose, and the degree of risk he
 > is willing to accept (o blissful ignorance) the cheapest crap on the
 > market is fine. But there really is a reason that serious boaters buy
 > serious equipment.

oh, oh. here's another one of your "certified ______ instructors" (fill in
the space with whatever you want) who is going to tell you its impossible
to jog without high cost high tech jogging shoes and instruction from a
certified jogging instructor, impossible to cycle without a high cost high
tech bicycle maintained by a certified bicycle mechanic and a fashionable
state of the art cycling costume, and impossible to go boating without the
latest high priced high tech equipment, clothing, and instruction.

when I post anything which questions their self-serving attitude naturally
they say I'm igonrant and know nothing abouyt boating in spite of having
been conceived in a canoe, delivered in a canoe, and cut my teeth on the
gunwales of a canoe, so to speak. my father was a prospector and my
grandfather a trapper and guide. I refuse to be intimidated by so-called
certified instructors or by government bureaucrats attempting to
intimidate me or any others who dare to go boating without prostrating
myself at their feet and making monetary sacrifices.

I don't know where these people get off thinking they can take over and
control a recreational activity like paddling canoes and kayaks. These are
the kind of people who told Bill Mason they would not sponsor a canoeing film
with a canvas canoe because they did not reommend canvas canoes in their
courses. These are the people who thought Eric Morse was crazy for
retracing long forgotten fur trading routes without "certification".

if you want to pay attention to surveys which are relevant you'll pay
attention to health surveys which show anxiety to be the most frequent
reason people seek medical treatment. what these certified so-and-so's are
doing is raising the level of anxiety in our society to serve their own
self interest. it's the basis of most advertising these days. scare the
heck out of people and then promise them you will make them safe if they
pay you enough money.

nonsense.

if you want to go paddling go paddling and ignore the self-serving crap
you read in this newsgroup.

the greatest safety aid you can possibly have is knowledge of local
conditions. before you go paddling find out the local water and weather
conditions. and go slow. don't attempt the most challenging conditions
until you've built up some phsical strenth and endurance and some
experience handling your boat.

for goodness sake don't think you are going to go out and duplicate the
feats you see in the photos on the covers of the paddling magasines and
in the advertisements on TV. those take time to develope sufficient
experience. no self-proclaimed certified anybody can give you that
experience.

and finally, give all your children a head start by conceiving them in
your kayak, the hard way, standing up.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

"William R. Watt" <ag384.RemoveThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:cfd2kn$ig8$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
 >
 > Oci-One Kanubi (rhopley@earthlink.net) writes:
 >
  > > But WRT the second, when I teach Swiftwater Safety and Rescue classes,
  > > we refer to the same American Canoe Association tabulation of U.S.
  > > Coast Guard accident statistics as do touring kayakers. So I can
  > > safely tell you to PLEASE not pay attention to Wm. Watt; he is a noted
  > > Luddite and r.b.p crank. For his purpose, and the degree of risk he
  > > is willing to accept (o blissful ignorance) the cheapest crap on the
  > > market is fine. But there really is a reason that serious boaters buy
  > > serious equipment.
 >
 > oh, oh. here's another one of your "certified ______ instructors" (fill in
 > the space with whatever you want) who is going to tell you its impossible
 > to jog without high cost high tech jogging shoes and instruction from a
 > certified jogging instructor, impossible to cycle without a high cost high
 > tech bicycle maintained by a certified bicycle mechanic and a fashionable
 > state of the art cycling costume, and impossible to go boating without the
 > latest high priced high tech equipment, clothing, and instruction.
 >
 > when I post anything which questions their self-serving attitude naturally
 > they say I'm igonrant and know nothing abouyt boating in spite of having
 > been conceived in a canoe, delivered in a canoe, and cut my teeth on the
 > gunwales of a canoe, so to speak. my father was a prospector and my
 > grandfather a trapper and guide. I refuse to be intimidated by so-called
 > certified instructors or by government bureaucrats attempting to
 > intimidate me or any others who dare to go boating without prostrating
 > myself at their feet and making monetary sacrifices.
 >
 > I don't know where these people get off thinking they can take over and
 > control a recreational activity like paddling canoes and kayaks. These are
 > the kind of people who told Bill Mason they would not sponsor a canoeing
film
 > with a canvas canoe because they did not reommend canvas canoes in their
 > courses. These are the people who thought Eric Morse was crazy for
 > retracing long forgotten fur trading routes without "certification".
 >
 > if you want to pay attention to surveys which are relevant you'll pay
 > attention to health surveys which show anxiety to be the most frequent
 > reason people seek medical treatment. what these certified so-and-so's are
 > doing is raising the level of anxiety in our society to serve their own
 > self interest. it's the basis of most advertising these days. scare the
 > heck out of people and then promise them you will make them safe if they
 > pay you enough money.
 >
 > nonsense.
 >
 > if you want to go paddling go paddling and ignore the self-serving crap
 > you read in this newsgroup.
 >
 > the greatest safety aid you can possibly have is knowledge of local
 > conditions. before you go paddling find out the local water and weather
 > conditions. and go slow. don't attempt the most challenging conditions
 > until you've built up some phsical strenth and endurance and some
 > experience handling your boat.
 >
 > for goodness sake don't think you are going to go out and duplicate the
 > feats you see in the photos on the covers of the paddling magasines and
 > in the advertisements on TV. those take time to develope sufficient
 > experience. no self-proclaimed certified anybody can give you that
 > experience.
 >
 > and finally, give all your children a head start by conceiving them in
 > your kayak, the hard way, standing up.

ROFL.

I basically agree with most of that...as you know I do think everyone on the
water should wear a PFD at all times, but other than that (as you also know)
I am 100% behind you with respect to my distaste for the authoritative sort
of discourse that "experts" like to use to turn a recreational activity into
something that sounds like computer code. I will never ever forget that guy
talking about using the "Hand of God" rescue as part of his story explaining
why it was unsafe for anyone to kayak without lessons. Sigh.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

William R. Watt wrote:

 >
 > oh, oh. here's another one of your "certified ______ instructors" (fill in
 > the space with whatever you want) who is going to tell you its impossible
 > to jog without high cost high tech jogging shoes and instruction from a
 > certified jogging instructor, impossible to cycle without a high cost high
 > tech bicycle maintained by a certified bicycle mechanic and a fashionable
 > state of the art cycling costume, and impossible to go boating without the
 > latest high priced high tech equipment, clothing, and instruction.
 >
 > when I post anything which questions their self-serving attitude naturally
 > they say I'm igonrant and know nothing abouyt boating in spite of having
 > been conceived in a canoe, delivered in a canoe, and cut my teeth on the
 > gunwales of a canoe, so to speak. my father was a prospector and my
 > grandfather a trapper and guide. I refuse to be intimidated by so-called
 > certified instructors or by government bureaucrats attempting to
 > intimidate me or any others who dare to go boating without prostrating
 > myself at their feet and making monetary sacrifices.

<snipped more crap than a dumptruck can carry>

It so happens that Richard is not only someone who's taken the time to
figure out what works and doesn't work by not only taking his own
experiences which, very much unlike your limited experience in paddling,
includes all kinds of paddling with all kinds of paddlers, but he has
also taken the time to do research and learn from other paddlers who
have had a wide range of experiences during their long paddling careers.

Richard is anything from selfserving, going out of his way to help
others, and make other paddler's paddling more enjoyable and safer. He
also doesn't advocate using the highest priced gear, as you so obviously
fail to grasp with your limited knowledge of the English language, but
he advocates buying quality gear that is safe and practical.

I wouldn't stare myself blind on his certification, but wonder instead
what wisdom and experience he has to offer, that could enhance and widen
my own experience and knowledge. Instead you go on yet another one of
your aimless rampages, completely ignoring that there was a lot that you
could have learned if you didn't have the IQ and limited vision of a
woodworm knawing on rocks.

Ignorance doesn't even come close to describing your social
disabilities, which you seem to want to display on this newsgroup time
and again, despite everyone besides you being fully aware of them.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wilko.webzone.ru/" target="_blank">http://wilko.webzone.ru/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

Wilko (look@in.my.sig) writes:
 > William R. Watt wrote:

 > It so happens that Richard is not only someone who's taken the time to
 > figure out what works and doesn't work by not only taking his own
 > experiences which, very much unlike your limited experience in paddling,
 > includes all kinds of paddling with all kinds of paddlers, but he has
 > also taken the time to do research and learn from other paddlers who
 > have had a wide range of experiences during their long paddling careers.

Richard could sleep and crap in his kayak and it would make no difference
to my opposition. If Richard or anyone like him wants to offer to teach
peopel what he thinks he knows about paddling for a fee or for free he cqn
go ahead as fars as Im' concerned. But when he and others like him made
teh claim nobody should be paddling unless they do it Richard's way after
taking lessons from him or one of his kind then he is DEAD WRONG. Nobody
needs to take lessons to paddle a canoe or a kayak and there is not one
correct way to do it.

How many of you have taken lessons from a certified sex instructor?
How many have taken lessons from a certified eating instructor?
How many have taken lessons from a certified walking instyructor?


 >
 > Richard is anything from selfserving, going out of his way to help
 > others, and make other paddler's paddling more enjoyable and safer. He

Nonsense. He is the utlimate self-serving individual if he thinks
everybody must adopt his style of padding and take lessons from him before
getting into a canoe or kayak. What a bloody great ego the man must have.

 > Ignorance doesn't even come close to describing your social
 > disabilities, which you seem to want to display on this newsgroup time
 > and again, despite everyone besides you being fully aware of them.

I can absolutely claim a superior social conscience when I argue for the
liberty of ever individual regardless of race, relgion, or income to paddle
his a canoe or kayak without interference from busybodies like you.

I don't give a God damn if you like it or not. Mind your own business and
leave people to enjoy paddling the way they choose, not the way you and
Richard want them to.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
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 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

Wilko <look.TakeThisOut@in.my.sig> typed

 > William R. Watt wrote:
 >
  > > [snip Watts' typical brain-dead drivel]
 >
 > [snip Wilko's kind remarks]

Thanks, Wilko. But I've given up arguing with this crank. If he
simply wanted to go out and push his own limits in a do-it-yourself
way, I would be interested in following his exploits and would have a
lot of respect for him. But you and I know that many people -- those
who did not cut their teeth on a canoe gunwhale, for example -- don't
know what gaps they have in their knowlege, and so are likely to get
themselves into serious trouble through innocent ignorance. And for
this guy to encourage everyone to try and do things his way is worse
than irresponsible; discouraging the unprepared from doing everything
they can to prepare themselves for a dangerous activity borders on
criminal.

I mean, look at the question: "should I or should I not take a safety
class?" What reasonable man could get bent out of shape on the topic
the way Watts does, or rant at people who "selfservingly" VOLUNTEER
their time to share their knowlege of river hazards to save others
from learning the hard way?

Watts is not a reasonable man and it just ain't worth the time to type
a direct reply to his drivel, although it IS worth the trouble to warn
newbies about the danger of listening to him.

Nice to hear from you,
-Richard

PS, next time yer in the States I'll have a basecamp for you in the
Piedmont area of western North Carolina. I'm buying a house tomorrow.
-R<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

William R. Watt wrote:
 > Wilko (look@in.my.sig) writes:
 >
  >>William R. Watt wrote:
 >
 >
  >>It so happens that Richard is not only someone who's taken the time to
  >>figure out what works and doesn't work by not only taking his own
  >>experiences which, very much unlike your limited experience in paddling,
  >>includes all kinds of paddling with all kinds of paddlers, but he has
  >>also taken the time to do research and learn from other paddlers who
  >>have had a wide range of experiences during their long paddling careers.
 >
 >
 > Richard could sleep and crap in his kayak and it would make no difference
 > to my opposition.

Another one of mr Watt's enlighthened ignorant remarks: He's a canoeist,
not a kayaker. If I thought you'd have the mental capacities to be able
to tell the difference, I'd explain it to you.

 > If Richard or anyone like him wants to offer to teach
 > peopel what he thinks he knows about paddling for a fee or for free he cqn
 > go ahead as fars as Im' concerned. But when he and others like him made
 > teh claim nobody should be paddling unless they do it Richard's way after
 > taking lessons from him or one of his kind then he is DEAD WRONG. Nobody
 > needs to take lessons to paddle a canoe or a kayak and there is not one
 > correct way to do it.

Again, your ignorance and lack of grasp of the English language shows in
your empty remarks: where exactly did he state that you needed to paddle
his way or not paddle at all?

Everyone can paddle as they like, but if you're smart, you try to learn
from others, since that is usually quicker and without being forced to
learn from your own mistakes, instead being able to learn from other
paddler's mistakes and experience.

Since, from your above remarks, it's very unlikely that you ever went to
school, I'll try to make this very easy for you: If you don't understand
the advantage of learning from others, please continue to do things your
own way. With a little luck you'll follow the paddlers who got away with
little harm.

 > How many of you have taken lessons from a certified sex instructor?

Are you as bad in bed as you are paddling?

I sure have learned a lot more from experienced partners than I could
have ever learned from a partner that also had no experience.
Unfortunately loving partners of bad sexpartners will often pretend that
it was good for them, despite knowing better.

 > How many have taken lessons from a certified eating instructor?

You learned how to eat with your hands all by yourself? Were you
actually raised by parents or did you grown up in the forest, as you
social manners often suggest?

 > How many have taken lessons from a certified walking instyructor?

Yeah, you're probably still crawling, not having gotten any help from
parents.

  >>Richard is anything from selfserving, going out of his way to help
  >>others, and make other paddler's paddling more enjoyable and safer. He
 >
 >
 > Nonsense. He is the utlimate self-serving individual if he thinks
 > everybody must adopt his style of padding and take lessons from him before
 > getting into a canoe or kayak. What a bloody great ego the man must have.

The only one having an ego to fit his ignorance is you. He gives them
sound advise making it easier to make progress and progress further than
you ever will. It's one thing to play with a paddle and survive on
flatwater and easy rapids, it's another to run clean lines in difficult
white water or paddle out in the ocean when there are big waves and
stiff winds.

Your utter lack of relevant knowledge and experience might not get you
killed where you are dabbling with a boat and a paddle, but as has been
proven time and again in the past, it does get other people hurt or
worse if they just jump into a boat and fool around on the nearest
whitewater. Learning enough and quickly enough in the beginning of your
paddling career is an essential part of making paddling a lot more safe,
and you obviously wouldn't know what safe is if it jumped up and bit you
on the nose.

 > I can absolutely claim a superior social conscience when I argue for the
 > liberty of ever individual regardless of race, relgion, or income to paddle
 > his a canoe or kayak without interference from busybodies like you.

Freedom comes from being able to go out on the water, feeling
uninhibited by fear, lack of knowledge or skill and being able to enjoy
yourself without taking absurd risks because of your ignorance or
foolishness. With freedom comes responsibility, and you are showing that
you are irresponsible to the point of recklessness when you promote your
lack of learning approach as the one and only true approach to paddling.

 > I don't give a God damn if you like it or not.

Now you need to revert to cursing to make your empty statements echo
even louder?

 > Mind your own business and
 > leave people to enjoy paddling the way they choose, not the way you and
 > Richard want them to.

I mind my own business, making sure morons like you don't spread their
irrate ramblings as some kind of gospel, pulling others down with them.
You're amazing, having an opinion on so many things that you never did,
never were capable of or never were shown. Your comparisons remind me of
children who are told something they can't quite comprehend, but who
will pretend that they do understand it anyway because they love the
(negative) attention it gives them.

You're a hoot, mr "never took a lesson": are you sure there isn't some
zoo in which you can be displayed, along with the other lower life forms
that purely live on instinct?

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wilko.webzone.ru/" target="_blank">http://wilko.webzone.ru/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

in article ad3b0$411bbf3b$53e80cac$18577@freeler.nl, Wilko at look.DeleteThis@in.my.sig
wrote on 8/12/04 3:07 PM:

 > William R. Watt wrote:
  >> Wilko (look@in.my.sig) writes:
  >>
   >>> William R. Watt wrote:
  >>
  >>
   >>> It so happens that Richard is not only someone who's taken the time to
   >>> figure out what works and doesn't work by not only taking his own
   >>> experiences which, very much unlike your limited experience in paddling,
   >>> includes all kinds of paddling with all kinds of paddlers, but he has
   >>> also taken the time to do research and learn from other paddlers who
   >>> have had a wide range of experiences during their long paddling careers.
  >>
  >>
  >> Richard could sleep and crap in his kayak and it would make no difference
  >> to my opposition.
 >
 > Another one of mr Watt's enlighthened ignorant remarks: He's a canoeist,
 > not a kayaker. If I thought you'd have the mental capacities to be able
 > to tell the difference, I'd explain it to you.
 >
  >> If Richard or anyone like him wants to offer to teach
  >> peopel what he thinks he knows about paddling for a fee or for free he cqn
  >> go ahead as fars as Im' concerned. But when he and others like him made
  >> teh claim nobody should be paddling unless they do it Richard's way after
  >> taking lessons from him or one of his kind then he is DEAD WRONG. Nobody
  >> needs to take lessons to paddle a canoe or a kayak and there is not one
  >> correct way to do it.
 >
 > Again, your ignorance and lack of grasp of the English language shows in
 > your empty remarks: where exactly did he state that you needed to paddle
 > his way or not paddle at all?
 >
 > Everyone can paddle as they like, but if you're smart, you try to learn
 > from others, since that is usually quicker and without being forced to
 > learn from your own mistakes, instead being able to learn from other
 > paddler's mistakes and experience.

It really depends on your goals, learning style, purpose...being able to do
something "quicker" is not always desirable, and you can't really be "forced
to learn from your own mistakes" you either learn from them or you don't.

I think your reaction (including the parts I snipped below) is in essence
making William's point, you seem to be saying that people who choose not to
take lessons are inferior in some way.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

 > Nice to hear from you,

That feeling is mutual.

 > PS, next time yer in the States I'll have a basecamp for you in the
 > Piedmont area of western North Carolina. I'm buying a house tomorrow.
 > -R

I'll gladly abuse your hospitality then!

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wilko.webzone.ru/" target="_blank">http://wilko.webzone.ru/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at? 

these fellows have backpaddled, dropping "certified" and "manditory" from
their claims, and now concur with my position. they continue to overstate
their claim for the advantages of "lessons" but that can be tolerated as
an error in generalization and a matter of misinformed opinion. at least
they are no longer classifing themseves with Tim and his proposal for
manditory sponson legislation.

Wilko (look@in.my.sig) writes:
 > Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
 >
  >> Nice to hear from you,
 >
 > That feeling is mutual.
 >
  >> PS, next time yer in the States I'll have a basecamp for you in the
  >> Piedmont area of western North Carolina. I'm buying a house tomorrow.
  >> -R
 >
 > I'll gladly abuse your hospitality then!
 >
 > --
 > Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
 > Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
 > ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wilko.webzone.ru/</font" target="_blank">http://wilko.webzone.ru/</font</a>>
 >
 >


--
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homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What other kayaks should I be looking at?