kayak air bags & kit

"MB" <mattbygo.DeleteThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1135535905.387054.262940@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> This is a fairly obvious question, but I could not find much info on
> the subject.
> I have a dagger RPM, and I want to get air bags for it. However, I'd
> like to keep room to put a dry bag (in the stern, because the bow is
> inaccessible due to bulkhead footrests). My plan was to put 1 bow and 1
> stern air bags (on opposite sides, to keep it flat), leaving 1 stern
> "bay" for kit.
> Does that seem a resaonable ? or do you really need to go for 2 font /
> 2 back air bags ?


We fit two rear and deflate them to store kit. Kit is also carried in
airtight bags so acts as bouyancy too.

You only need airbags when you get swamped/ go for a swim. Until then all
they doo is take up space. Once you go for a swim air bags make recovery of
the boat easier (generally) - esp in X rescues, particularly if the rescuer
is small, or the rescuer's boat is small.

Having one airbag at one side at the rear may complicate things - I must
try this next time we are messing about and see if it makes any difference.

I suppose, like most things, there will be many different options

Ewan Scott
 >> Stay informed about: kayak air bags & kit 

Ewan Scott wrote:
> You only need airbags when you get swamped/ go for a swim. Until then all
> they doo is take up space.

True. That's all they do when you swim, too, of course.

Steve
 >> Stay informed about: kayak air bags & kit 

Thanks for the input.
Yes I realise that the bags are only any use when you go swimming, but
surely having a sensible distribution of bouyancy is helpful for
recovery. If you put 2 bags front and back on the same side (the RPM
has split front and back), the boat would float go on it's side when
full of water, which would be a pain to recover... same goes for
all-at-the-front or all-at-the-back options (although inherent buoyancy
should prevent the nose or stern (whichever doesn't have the bags)
sinking altogether) ? if it wasn't December, I'd go out and try it !
Given the cost of air bags, I'm going to investigate recycling plastic
milk bottles for the back. A combination of 2, 4 and 6 pint sizes
should fill the space quite nicely at the back... might rattle though.
The front will be more tricky, cause it needs to go past the foot rests
flat.
MB
 >> Stay informed about: kayak air bags & kit 

point taken.
It costs nothing to try, and it will be pretty obvious whether it is
secure or not. If they can be secured, they will certainly provide a
robust/heavy duty solution.
 >> Stay informed about: kayak air bags & kit 

"cramersec" <cramersec.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1135880972.621515.268030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ewan Scott wrote:
> > You only need airbags when you get swamped/ go for a swim. Until then
all
> > they doo is take up space.
>
> True. That's all they do when you swim, too, of course.
>

I've heard folks claim that having airbags helps them in white water by
giving added bouyancy. I don't try to explain that they don't make any
difference because it is too counter such myths. Physics should really be
manadatory at school

Ewan Scott
 >> Stay informed about: kayak air bags & kit 

"MB" <mattbygo.TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1135953886.463133.210770@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks for the input.
> Yes I realise that the bags are only any use when you go swimming, but
> surely having a sensible distribution of bouyancy is helpful for
> recovery. If you put 2 bags front and back on the same side (the RPM
> has split front and back), the boat would float go on it's side when
> full of water, which would be a pain to recover... same goes for
> all-at-the-front or all-at-the-back options (although inherent buoyancy
> should prevent the nose or stern (whichever doesn't have the bags)
> sinking altogether) ? if it wasn't December, I'd go out and try it !
> Given the cost of air bags, I'm going to investigate recycling plastic
> milk bottles for the back. A combination of 2, 4 and 6 pint sizes
> should fill the space quite nicely at the back... might rattle though.
> The front will be more tricky, cause it needs to go past the foot rests
> flat.



Milk bottles might be cheaper but they are less flexible.

Don't know what sort of kayak you have, or where you paddle, but let's say
you have £500 worth of kit in your boat. You are paddling down a river, you
are somewhere where egress from the river is difficult, you go for a swim,
your boat swamps, your milk bottles dislodge (even if tied in) and you then
have a great struggle to recover self and boat. Or, fit £50 quid worth of
heavy duty airbags and at least your boat will be a/ more visible when
swamped, b/ easier to empty/ rescue, and your kit will still usually be
secure in your boat.

BTW, I'd also add that it false economy to buy cheap poly airbags. Better to
spend a little and get heavy duty ones that are tear resistant.

OTOH, milk bottles may be an excellent solution

Ewan Scott
 >> Stay informed about: kayak air bags & kit 

"MB" <mattbygo.DeleteThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1135964813.670744.16920@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> point taken.
> It costs nothing to try, and it will be pretty obvious whether it is
> secure or not. If they can be secured, they will certainly provide a
> robust/heavy duty solution.


I don't mean to sound dismissive. I'm involved with Scouts and as long as
I've been involved I've come across adults who think that we can get away
with second-hand wolly jumpers, welly boots, tin cans and string and my
experience says that kids won't go with shoddy ideas any more. So when we
kitted out we went for the best we could get money for. That included poly
airbags all round. However, we are gradually changing to heavy duty bags as
the poly ones get punctured.

I've got nothing against folks who try "Heath Robinson" solutions, just that
I'm not keen on them myself.

Ewan Scott
 >> Stay informed about: kayak air bags & kit 

> I've heard folks claim that having airbags helps them in white water by
> giving added bouyancy. I don't try to explain that they don't make any
> difference because it is too counter such myths. Physics should really be
> manadatory at school
>
> Ewan Scott

I'll second the physics at school motion, if this was true I'd be paddling
quite funny, what with my single sided air bag and splits in the other. I
paid £13 for my motion research airbag and it's fine, taken a beating this
season since sept (...ahem) and still isn't punctured.

As for Milk cartons, they work till the boat fills with water, then they
give up on life and either pop the lids off or go wondering down stream. The
air bags on the same side sounds as if it might work, if it fills with a
large quantity of water it's easier to pull it up from the side to let some
water out, then lift it on it's end (the one with the airbags in so they
displace the water) and drag it onto your deck to empty. If it's just
displace water while it's being towed to the side then I'd place two at the
rear as this is the most common place to put them (unless it's a creeker
then I'd also have some infront of the foot plate. Maybe this will help with
re-surfacing...... *cough*)

Mike
 >> Stay informed about: kayak air bags & kit 

In message <Gbvtf.46555$PD2.34391@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"RuFf!!" <m.roughley.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> > I've heard folks claim that having airbags helps them in white water by
> > giving added bouyancy. I don't try to explain that they don't make any
> > difference because it is too counter such myths. Physics should really be
> > manadatory at school
> >
> > Ewan Scott
>
> I'll second the physics at school motion, if this was true I'd be paddling
> quite funny, what with my single sided air bag and splits in the other. I
> paid £13 for my motion research airbag and it's fine, taken a beating this
> season since sept (...ahem) and still isn't punctured.
>
> As for Milk cartons, they work till the boat fills with water, then they
> give up on life and either pop the lids off or go wondering down stream. The
> air bags on the same side sounds as if it might work, if it fills with a
> large quantity of water it's easier to pull it up from the side to let some
> water out, then lift it on it's end (the one with the airbags in so they
> displace the water) and drag it onto your deck to empty. If it's just
> displace water while it's being towed to the side then I'd place two at the
> rear as this is the most common place to put them (unless it's a creeker
> then I'd also have some infront of the foot plate. Maybe this will help with
> re-surfacing...... *cough*)
>

And this might be a suitable point to repeat advice I've seen elsewhere -
when rescuing a boat, i.e. deep water rescue, lift the heavier end first. By
heavier in this context I mean the end which floats lowest. It's harder to
do initially, but as it usually results from one end of the boat having
airbags, then the water will run from the end being lifted, and cannot run
into the other end. Thus the second part of the lift, onto your boat,
becomes much easier.

If you lift the airbagged end first, you then end up with the far end of the
boat full of water, and it's very hard to get it past the balance point.

Of course, drybags with kit in work as airbags too, just not so well.

I find a good system is to put the airbags in the back, uninflated. The
drybags go on top, then the airbags are inflated. This locks the drybags in,
and holds them out of any water in the boat, so they are less likely to
leak. It doesn't keep them dry when you're swimming of course, but that
shouldn't last as long.

Alan


--
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
alan.adams.DeleteThis@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.nckc.org.uk/
 >> Stay informed about: kayak air bags & kit 

> And this might be a suitable point to repeat advice I've seen elsewhere -
> when rescuing a boat, i.e. deep water rescue, lift the heavier end first.
> By
> heavier in this context I mean the end which floats lowest. It's harder to
> do initially, but as it usually results from one end of the boat having
> airbags, then the water will run from the end being lifted, and cannot run
> into the other end. Thus the second part of the lift, onto your boat,
> becomes much easier.
>
> If you lift the airbagged end first, you then end up with the far end of
> the
> boat full of water, and it's very hard to get it past the balance point.

On my CST (and subsequent rivers I've had to pull boats filled with water)
It's easier to empty by lifting the side first then swing it over your deck.
this reduces the lever effect the submerged boat has or yours and reduces
the amount of stress you put your body under. alternatively if it's
difficult to get the boat and swimmer out of the water on the bank then get
them to drag their boat across your deck for you by using their legs on the
hull of your boat then get them to hang on the end of the boat which will
begin to empty, making it easy for you to finish it off and the swimmer has
started to be warmed up again, takes their mind off of swimming.

Mike
 >> Stay informed about: kayak air bags & kit 

"kids won't go with shoddy ideas any more"

True, and a bit sad also. You need stuff which is fit for purpose
(which milk cartons may not be...different debate !!!), but I think
it's sad that the only worthy option is "buy it fom the shop". Making
your own solutions can be good fun, and just as effective (and testing
the effectivness is important... but that's the same for bought goods,
as highlighted by so many regarding the thin poly airbags).
I'm also involved in scouting, and always impressed at how skilled some
of these kids can get, and yet how little creativity many of them have.
There _was_ life before GPS, Gore-Tex and cell phones, and it was just
as (if not more) fun.
My opinion anyway !
MB
 >> Stay informed about: kayak air bags & kit 

"As for Milk cartons, they work till the boat fills with water, then
they
give up on life and either pop the lids off or go wondering down
stream."

Is that from experience Mike ???
I've tried popping the top off an empty milk carton by applying sudden
pressure, and they don't fly off. + placed all together in a net,
there's no way they'll ever get out, as they are larger than the gap
when my back rest is in place (again the old physics thing kicks in
!!!).
I'm interested if you've tried this and it's been unsuccessfull.
MB
 >> Stay informed about: kayak air bags & kit 

thanks. useful input.
MB
 >> Stay informed about: kayak air bags & kit