Where is hull design going?

It's not new ... but it seems to have some unrecognized features ... besides
being able to park in the mud and stay upright. My neighbour up the way had
a twin keel ... I thought it kindof oddball ... but having read the article
.... very interesting.

"Marty" <TheBird DeleteThis @crazy.scientist.com> wrote in message
news:7QBsb.32457$xI2.613685@news20.bellglobal.com...
 > Twin keel design does not seem very new to me - I am sure I have seen it
 > before, just can't remember where right now...
 >
 > bowgus wrote:
  > > Check this (twin keel) article out ... the site has some other
interesting
<font color=green>  > > articles ... <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/index.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/index.html</font</a>>
  > >
  > >
  > > "gjoyce" <gjoyce DeleteThis @optonline.net> wrote in message
  > > news:4d1e724.0311100419.52d9f094@posting.google.com...
  > >
   > >>I figured this erudite group could point me in the correct direction.
   > >>I've been
   > >>cruising thru a variety of naval research sites, but was wondering
   > >>what you
   > >>designer-types might think.
   > >>
   > >>Where do you see hull design - shapes, materials, coatings,
   > >>propulsion, etc. - going in the near - and not so near - future?
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>Thanks
   > >>
   > >>Gary P. Joyce
  > >
  > >
  > >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 00:48:14 GMT, "bowgus" <Bowgus.RemoveThis@rogers.com> wrote:

 >It's not new ... but it seems to have some unrecognized features ... besides
 >being able to park in the mud and stay upright. My neighbour up the way had
 >a twin keel ... I thought it kindof oddball ... but having read the article
 >... very interesting.
 >
 >"Marty" <TheBird.RemoveThis@crazy.scientist.com> wrote in message
 >news:7QBsb.32457$xI2.613685@news20.bellglobal.com...
  >> Twin keel design does not seem very new to me - I am sure I have seen it
  >> before, just can't remember where right now...
  >>
  >> bowgus wrote:
   >> > Check this (twin keel) article out ... the site has some other
 >interesting
<font color=brown>   >> > articles ... <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/index.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/index.html</font</a>>
   >> >
Unrecognized features? It trades sailing ability for the ability to
sit upright when the tide goes down. If you don't need the latter, it
is all downside. The same hull with a single fin keel incorporating
the same lead will always sail better, unless it is a horribly
incompetent design.

If the only place you can keep your boat dries out at low tide, then
you really want a twin keel..

Otherwise, why even consider it?



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Curse thee, thou quadrant. No longer will I guide my earthly way by thee." Capt. Ahab<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

Funny, I was thinking that the only 15 ft boat
I can recall that has a cabin is a Potter.
Your comment about the free computer programs coincides
exactly with my experience. They almost work.
I've tried working with cad and programs like
Carlsons Hull, but have never had much success with them.
Sure, Cad type programs work great, if you know how to use them.
Personally I prefer to manually draw a lines plan, then
loft it, then build. I've only actually done this, start to finish,
once. Everything else I've ever built was from an existing design
that I modified. I've drawn a lot of small boat designs though.
I just like to work larger than a little screen will let me.
I can stand back and look at it and site down a line from the side.
Why go the computer route? Ok ok..there are a lot of reasons, I know.
My previous suggestion...the one that Per jumped on...to bring a file to
a computer router guy would not be my first choice.
I assume this boat is plywood. Yes? That makes a big diference because
the work of drawing it, either manually or on a computer is simplified.

I was more interested in the path that your thinking might take during
the design process. Something like a flow chart. A graphic line with
stops along the way. If you can map that out, mabey copy or repeat
someone else's path, then you might get to where you want.
If you want to bush wack thru the pucker brush, well, you'll get
bloody in the process.

If you want to email me any of the scanned sketches, I'd be happy to
offer my 2cents.




William R. Watt wrote:
 > stevej (vtboat@REMOVENOSPAMverizon.net) writes:
 >
  >>William R. Watt wrote:
  >>
   >>>The best
   >>>ones have the simplest set of essential information.
  >>
  >>Man, ain't that the truth. You got to SIMPLIFY.
  >>But I don't understand, if you can build a model, why
  >>can't you draw it?
 >
 >
 > <...>
 >
  >>So, why do you even want to "get it down on paper"?
  >>Is it to sell the design?
  >>You mentioned that you don't plan on building it.
  >>Who will build it?
 >
 >
 > I see plenty of amateur boat building projects on the Internet but rarely
 > an amateur boat designing project. I can only think of one for a one sheet
 > boat and Barend Migchelsen's geometric analysis of a dory. I thought I'd
 > try to design a boat and show the process on my website. It's a boat I'd
 > like to build and sail but that's not practical for me to do. The boat
 > is kind of unique so I'm starting from scratch. The closest boat to it I'm
 > aware of is the 15 ft West Wight Potter. This is a first for me.
 >
 > As part of the project I'm using some free computer programs off the net
 > and hope to write up some guidance on how and when to use these particular
 > programs as well. I'm using three because no one gives me enough
 > information. Although the computer programs produce line drawings from
 > tables of offsets I'm not happy with the way they smooth the curves as I
 > manipulate the offsets. I don't know how to get any of them to draw a flat
 > run. Those are important because I hope to use the numbers one program
 > puts out for cutting the plywood panels.
 >
 > I've scanned sketches and captured screen images. If all goes well I hope
 > to take photos of models and scan them too.
 >
 > If it's ever finished I won't be selling plans. People could use the design
 > for free as long as they don't use it for profit.
 >
 >
 > --
 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
 > homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
 > warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

Well Per, I was just thinking.
I wrote that I COULD IMAGINE someone doing it.
I didn't say it made economical sense.
I'm not sure what you are talking about with this 3d and foam stuff.
William's boat is plywood (I think)
That means that after he has worked out all of the panels
and reduced them to 2 dimensions, they could be cut
on a computer driven router.
I know little about this and prefer to keep my
boat building simple. I've tried to use computer programs to
draw and then build a boat. It ain't easy. I've drawn lots of
hulls from tables of offsets though and lofted a few.
I am currently building perhaps the simplest, and mabey the
most seaworthy design ever, a greenland style skin on frame kayak.
everything is in units of fathoms, cubits and fingers, which is
different for everybody. Building from instinct and tradition
also works and I like the idea that I don't need to calculate
anything or use any numbers larger than 3. And you have to admit that
for its intended use, a greenland kayak is a pretty successful...no,
let me rephrase that...an AWESOME design.
SteveJ



Per Corell wrote:
 > Hi
 >
 > stevej <vtboat DeleteThis @REMOVENOSPAMverizon.net> wrote in message news:<3FB2DF70.6030502 DeleteThis @REMOVENOSPAMverizon.net>...
 >
  >>William R. Watt wrote:
  >>
   >>>The best
   >>>ones have the simplest set of essential information.
  >>
  >>Man, ain't that the truth. You got to SIMPLIFY.
  >>But I don't understand, if you can build a model, why
  >>can't you draw it?
  >>I tend to take an existing design, and change it.
  >>This works out a lot of the basic stuff, like ergonomics
  >>and scantlings easily and then it can be tweaked to adapt
  >>to whatever.
  >>
  >>Everyone learns from everyone else
  >>who succeeds in putting their work out there.
  >>
  >>I approach boat design through the drawings of others.
  >>If one wants to build something that is as close to the
  >>designer's idea, a drawing works well in looking at all of
  >>the details.
  >>Often, after studying drawings of a boat, I am surprised
  >>when I see the boat actually in the water.
  >>Not that the boat is any different then what I know the drawing
  >>says it should be, but there is something else that comes through
  >>that is not in the drawing.
  >>Some people say boats are alive. I'd say some are more alive than others.
  >>Some people approach design instinctively. They visualize a
  >>design, then try to build it.
  >>Others try to choose a set of parameters and then design
  >>a structure to deal with it.
  >>There is a linear path that either approach takes.
  >>They vary depending on where the designer wants to go.
  >>When I taught myself to draw boats full size (loft), I realised
  >>how much easier it was to then build the boat.
  >>The drawing gave me a ready made pattern for every piece in the boat.
  >>
  >>Mabey it could be looked at this way.
  >>In order to communicate your idea to somebody else, you have a number of
  >>choices. Let's call them your Media choices.
  >>So far you have used the written word to communicate your idea.
  >>Other Media choices might be photographs of the boat model.
  >>Drawing would be another.
  >>Video might be another.
  >>
  >>I notice that people who sell boat designs usually use drawings.
  >>That doesn't mean they have to.
  >>I can imagine selling a design for a kit that has no drawings at all.
  >>For instance, you display photos of your design...the actual boat.
  >>People download a bunch of files..binary code and save it to a floppy.
  >>They bring the disk to their local "guy with a computer driven router"
  >>He cuts the design for the guy and the guy assembles it based on a
  >>sequence of written instructions telling him how and in what order.
  >>The advantages of this method are obvious. No paper..shipping...etc.
  >>The disadvantages are that there might not be a "guy with a computer
  >>driven router" willing to do it.
  >>But another hidden disadvantage is that many people are used to drawings
  >>and won't like paying for a "computer file".
  >>
  >>So, why do you even want to "get it down on paper"?
  >>Is it to sell the design?
  >>You mentioned that you don't plan on building it.
  >>Who will build it?
  >>
 >
 >
 > Well if you think it is an idear to ask a 3D router the cost of a
 > small impire, 4 engineers the cost of a farm and using a foam block
 > the price of a Volkswagon to produce a 20 feet boat , you are wrong.
 > Atleast for 20 years you have had the oppotunity to router 3D, then
 > why do you think it shuld be an idear to make a plug in foam when
 > after that, you need to sand and fill, then do that form that will
 > make your one boat ; do you realise what this will cost ?
 > You suggest foto's ----- what is a foto other than a "drawing" added
 > perspective, but without measures and showing no sections no water
 > lines no data for the router; how would you even translate data-less
 > graphic into router data accurate down one hundred of a millimeter.
 > The only N.C. technikes that acturly offer a way to make this work is
 > 2D cutting of sheet material.
 > What you don't realise is, that the lofting you learned is what modern
 > CAD work ontop of. That the CAD program already "know" lofting as that
 > is what the CAD program build ontop of. --------- That's why a lot of
 > the part result of a Loft process is not there to se, in a CAD program
 > ; the program alrady worked further than that, it already used the
 > offset tables , the collum and row measurements to acturly put the
 > frame on the screen ; how do you othervise think a rib could be there,
 > if the CAD program isn't already acturly by graphic showing the bloody
 > stoneage tools in a much more effective and accurate way, ---------
 > beside when you messed that much with tradisional boat drawings, why
 > havn't you realised as anyone else, that the old methods show the
 > foults when you realy build.
 > Have you even realised why CAD is better to show a spline, ----- have
 > you ever tried to change the front or aft of a vessel on a tradisional
 > set of planes in 3 projections , and then tried the same with a CAD
 > system, as _then_ you will know.
 >
 > Do it, ------ make the experience as how others had to build boat
 > after boat, develobing the technikes and skills, ---- test it and show
 > the result.
 > Still if you just realise that they project planes and go to Mars
 > based on 3D CAD , you will also realise that with a true 3D drawing
 > you do not need any model , unless you also question they ever reached
 > the moon , as you _can not_ produce a 3D drawing , unless everything
 > work in real.
 >
 > You suggest spending a million producing a small boat from some
 > foto's, but don't realise that for new technology to be new, it must
 > be new and different.
 > Beside develobed by somone with just a bit experienc and the ability a
 > lot participant in this group hate, the ability to develob new, true
 > new.
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/</font" target="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/</font</a>>
 >
 > Per Corell<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

I clipped Marty's and added them below because I think
it fits in to what we are talking about.
"Rufus has some good points there.
I happen to work with CAD programs (you have to make a living somehow)
and while some are better than others, they all have a learning period.
I can "read and write" with various CAD programs, but for projects at
home (and even initial designs at work) I very often use pad and pencil.
For initial design it is very fast and cheap, provided you have an idea
what you want to accomplish.
If you have no idea what you want to accomplish, even the best software
won't help you.
For occasional use CAD programs are too cumbersome and expensive,
thinking about things like AutoCad (very user unfriendly, and in my
opinion not much better than a drawing board), Solidworks (no Nurbs
splines), CadKey (Silly file structuring), I would say:
if you are not going to use it very frequently, don't bother.
You can also do a websearch, there are a few free cad or design programs
available, can't remember any right now, but I know they are there,
because I have tried a few a while ago.
Can give you a feel for the frustration of an expensive CAD program...

So, here is my plea for the pad and pencil from the dollarstore for
Number One Design Tool, lol"


William R. Watt wrote:
 > stevej (vtboat@REMOVENOSPAMverizon.net) writes:
 >
  >>William R. Watt wrote:
  >>
   >>>The best
   >>>ones have the simplest set of essential information.
  >>
  >>Man, ain't that the truth. You got to SIMPLIFY.
  >>But I don't understand, if you can build a model, why
  >>can't you draw it?
 >
 >
 > <...>
 >
  >>So, why do you even want to "get it down on paper"?
  >>Is it to sell the design?
  >>You mentioned that you don't plan on building it.
  >>Who will build it?
 >
 >
 > I see plenty of amateur boat building projects on the Internet but rarely
 > an amateur boat designing project. I can only think of one for a one sheet
 > boat and Barend Migchelsen's geometric analysis of a dory. I thought I'd
 > try to design a boat and show the process on my website. It's a boat I'd
 > like to build and sail but that's not practical for me to do. The boat
 > is kind of unique so I'm starting from scratch. The closest boat to it I'm
 > aware of is the 15 ft West Wight Potter. This is a first for me.
 >
 > As part of the project I'm using some free computer programs off the net
 > and hope to write up some guidance on how and when to use these particular
 > programs as well. I'm using three because no one gives me enough
 > information. Although the computer programs produce line drawings from
 > tables of offsets I'm not happy with the way they smooth the curves as I
 > manipulate the offsets. I don't know how to get any of them to draw a flat
 > run. Those are important because I hope to use the numbers one program
 > puts out for cutting the plywood panels.
 >
 > I've scanned sketches and captured screen images. If all goes well I hope
 > to take photos of models and scan them too.
 >
 > If it's ever finished I won't be selling plans. People could use the design
 > for free as long as they don't use it for profit.
 >
 >
 > --
 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
 > homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
 > warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

Hi

stevej <vtboat.RemoveThis@REMOVENOSPAMverizon.net> wrote in message news:<3FB449B2.7090000.RemoveThis@REMOVENOSPAMverizon.net>...
 > Well Per, I was just thinking.
 > I wrote that I COULD IMAGINE someone doing it.
 > I didn't say it made economical sense.
 > I'm not sure what you are talking about with this 3d and foam stuff.
 > William's boat is plywood (I think)
 > That means that after he has worked out all of the panels
 > and reduced them to 2 dimensions, they could be cut
 > on a computer driven router.
 > I know little about this and prefer to keep my
 > boat building simple. I've tried to use computer programs to
 > draw and then build a boat. It ain't easy. I've drawn lots of
 > hulls from tables of offsets though and lofted a few.
 > I am currently building perhaps the simplest, and mabey the
 > most seaworthy design ever, a greenland style skin on frame kayak.
 > everything is in units of fathoms, cubits and fingers, which is
 > different for everybody. Building from instinct and tradition
 > also works and I like the idea that I don't need to calculate
 > anything or use any numbers larger than 3. And you have to admit that
 > for its intended use, a greenland kayak is a pretty successful...no,
 > let me rephrase that...an AWESOME design.
 > SteveJ
 >

Well that\s exactly how Cyber-Boats are drawn, ------- what you get
when you ownload one of the nice Cyber-Boat designs, is the actural 3D
model so you can work on with your computer and get over the first
difficult steps. Buat also you get the exact building Jig in full
scale on paper, and the unfolded panels or planks that fit exactly
onto the building Jig , ---- even for the Lapstrake hulls.
Those designs is produced with my in-house software that don't offer
just 6 ribs or sections as some of the free download stuff do, but a
hull that is first projected with splines , then as there is no use
for Splines after the ends meet the Splines is divided into maby 200
small 3D Lines in a computer mesh entity the length of the hull, and
maby only 4 strait lines the other way ; guess you se the gadged,
----- compleatly smooth and accurate the length of the hull and the
exact 4 panels from keel up, the other way.
Then the 3D Model is unfolded and 4 exact panels or 3 if that's what
you asked the program , is drawn flat out on your screen and even you
can't se it, one millimeter in the drawing is one drawing unit , so
when the print shop get the AutoCAD drawing you get all pieces
unfolded drawn on cheap paper in full scale.
-------- If you want another check, you just add a circle ontop the
drawing in a specific color, and check if that one have the measures
and is compleatly round.
Go to Cyber-Boat old site where you will se the process described as
how this worked 10 or 12 years ago, but please remember that just
becaurse they build boats with the old methods for centuries , this
don't mean that somone that builded loads of hulls ,can't invent a
method that work better and esp. better than forcing the old rigid
methods into computer code, ---- realy the result not if it is
different than the conservative method count. Just check how
architects just written the old settled methods into computer code ;
it run faster and more accurate, but it is still the same old
Lego-Mind , making block on block counting each window , ------ but
not the creativity anyone else than architects expect. The same with
boatsbuilding ; you read a group where the designs offered is the same
70 year old designs, left over from a time where a boat was somthing
you made for the kids , from the leftover scrap plywood and Popular
Mechanics plans ; you think that is boatsbuilding ?
Well it's often craft in a quality that a boatbuilder would not
accept.
Then even the technology put forth in this group is what was here 8
years ago ; Do you realy think this wabbeling set of ribs ;

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/models/scale-4.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/models/scale-4.jpg</a>

is a better set of ribs to build on and place panels on than this ;

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/dwg/main3.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/dwg/main3.jpg</a>

????

Well , Cyber-Boat was the first to interduce full-Scale plans in this
group so do you realy think that is possible without knowing what
boats building is about, ------- still after the harasment in this
particular group I decided to stay with offering just the ready
designs that was the result of develobing software ontop my life long
experience building boats, and forget about publishing the software
then you Jokers can stay with your boxes.

Per Corell<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

Terry Sprang says:

 >Solar cell jetpump ultralightweight nesting hydrofoil speedboats,
 >of course.
 >
 >Pop bottles taped together, polyglass / used nylon stocking
 >(pantyhose), cardboard core reinforced plastic "boat" style kite
 >/ airplanes using hydrogen "cold steam" sculling oolau drive
 >engines, assisted by the aero-bouyant hydrogen gas bag /
 >fuselage, towing water ballasted keels.
 >
 >Didn't you know?
 >

Step away from the bong, Terry - NOW!!



Steve<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

"bowgus" (Bowgus@rogers.com) writes:
 > It's not new ... but it seems to have some unrecognized features ... besides
 > being able to park in the mud and stay upright. My neighbour up the way had
 > a twin keel ... I thought it kindof oddball ... but having read the article
 > ... very interesting.

someone has been advertising a 21ft twin keel boat in our local sailing
newsgroup, ott.re.sailing.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

stevej (vtboat@REMOVENOSPAMverizon.net) writes:
 > Funny, I was thinking that the only 15 ft boat
 > I can recall that has a cabin is a Potter.
 > Your comment about the free computer programs coincides
 > exactly with my experience. They almost work.

I've used 3 computer programs so far. My own free skiff program to get the
rocker and flare to put the stem heel and transom at the load waterline.
The free Blue Peter program to include the cabin in the table of offsets,
automatically adjust trim to balance the hull, and then compute the
hydrostatic numbers. The free Carlson program for the shapes of the
plywood hull panels. I'm certain that's easier than computing the numbers
and "unfolding" the plywood panels by hand, for me anyway. Did I mention
the programs are free?

I agree about the learning curve. None of the programs I've used is
particuallry well documented, the Carlson being the worst, in spite of
a helpful guide written by a user.

Still, none of the "pencil and paper" recommendations in this newsgroup
has recommended the purchase of an ERASER, a serious omission IMHO. I
suspect they also purchase a set of those plastic curves. I know I'd need
a set.

 > I was more interested in the path that your thinking might take during
 > the design process. Something like a flow chart. A graphic line with
 > stops along the way. If you can map that out, mabey copy or repeat
 > someone else's path, then you might get to where you want.

Yes, yes. Project managment. I have a copy of MS Project 98 which I
considered employing to illustrate a small boat design and contruction
project. But I don't think there would be much interest among amateur
boatbuilders making small boats, 'way too much overhead, 'way too much like
being at work. A simple "todo" list will do.
It's mostly for large complex projects. However to illustrate the steps in
designing and building a small boat, how some things can be done
simultaneously, and how much time you have to allow for the paint to dry,
it might be useful. I don't know engough about boatbuildign to illustrate
more than a very small project.

 > If you want to email me any of the scanned sketches, I'd be happy to
 > offer my 2cents.

I've rather rashly begun putting interim results on my webpage under
"Boats" and "15 foot sailboat". The text is full of errors and I just
re-wrote a whole section. Nothing more than a rough draft at this point.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

What about epoxied tissue paper stretched over coathanger wire framing?



Brian

--
My boat project: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass" target="_blank">http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass</a>


"Terry Spragg" <terry2 DeleteThis @nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message
news:3FB41C7D.731545E1@nbnet.nb.ca...
 >
 >
 > gjoyce wrote:
  > >
  > > I figured this erudite group could point me in the correct direction.
  > > I've been
  > > cruising thru a variety of naval research sites, but was wondering
  > > what you
  > > designer-types might think.
  > >
  > > Where do you see hull design - shapes, materials, coatings,
  > > propulsion, etc. - going in the near - and not so near - future?
  > >
  > > Thanks
  > >
  > > Gary P. Joyce
 >
 > Solar cell jetpump ultralightweight nesting hydrofoil speedboats,
 > of course.
 >
 > Pop bottles taped together, polyglass / used nylon stocking
 > (pantyhose), cardboard core reinforced plastic "boat" style kite
 > / airplanes using hydrogen "cold steam" sculling oolau drive
 > engines, assisted by the aero-bouyant hydrogen gas bag /
 > fuselage, towing water ballasted keels.
 >
 > Didn't you know?
 >
 > --
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 > SofDevCo
 > opbdas DeleteThis @claila.org<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

Hi

ag384.DeleteThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (William R. Watt) wrote in message news:<bp2u2v$s8u$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>...
 > I've used 3 computer programs so far. My own free skiff program to get the
 > rocker and flare to put the stem heel and transom at the load waterline.
 > The free Blue Peter program to include the cabin in the table of offsets,
 > automatically adjust trim to balance the hull, and then compute the
 > hydrostatic numbers. The free Carlson program for the shapes of the
 > plywood hull panels. I'm certain that's easier than computing the numbers
 > and "unfolding" the plywood panels by hand, for me anyway. Did I mention
 > the programs are free?
 >
Snip

There are several way\s to get the measures from a model down on
paper.
When there , it is somtimes somtimes not an idear to press the button
and "smooth" the resulting mesh , ------- sorry it's a long
explernation why "somtimes not" , but this deal with what unfolding
software you use.
But placing lines on the model that follow a plane, sort like cutting
the model in slices is possible in many way's , even with a camara but
then you still need to place lines on the model first and remember to
correct for the perspective. Acturly before drawings was interduced
back the 16' century, naval shipyards was totaly dependant on models ;
huge vessels was build from measures taken directly on scale models ,
but it was not to be able to acturly build the ship , but to be able
to build another one as good, as the one that showed good abilities.
------- And to be able to steal the good idears of the enemy , when
one of their ships was taken.
Now I will not start critic Carlson software but from what I seen , it
offer very limited oppotunities. But as I said I hardly remember it as
I only tried it once and instantly scrapped it, after testing it up
against my in-house applications. What I remember is that I was most
unplesant with hulls where the unfolding shuld be based on 6 or 8
strait lines forming a hull that smooth perfect with the rendering
smooth rutines but is still an edgy raw model.
--------- maby I shuld explain, that you can draw quite edgy models,
but when you render these the rendering software will smooth all but
show a hull that is much nicer, than if you stay with the raw 3D model
and make that unfold.
My designs of say a 7 meter hull ,divide each panel into maby 800
small strait lines ,making any foult smaller than what a weld or a
glue line will cover, beside as there are still some handywork
involved, a panel cut from a smooth rounded line, consisting of say
700 small strait lines of each one Cm. length , will be a complete
spline after first blow with the hand plane.

Please check the old presentation of the tradisional norwegian pram
redesigned for Cyber-Boat, here there are somthing like 200 small
lines along the boat ;

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/grafik/holmsbu-1-2.gif" target="_blank">http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/grafik/holmsbu-1-2.gif</a>

So realy I blame the software that amature builders havn't been able
to find easier user interface, ------ realy untill a 100 years ago and
since that to, lots of perfect designs been produced by builders being
better making a model than doing a drawing , what count is not the
program but the feel and will.

P.C.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

Hi

ag384.TakeThisOut@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (William R. Watt) wrote in message news:<bp2u2v$s8u$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>...
 > I've used 3 computer programs so far. My own free skiff program to get the
 > rocker and flare to put the stem heel and transom at the load waterline.
 > The free Blue Peter program to include the cabin in the table of offsets,
 > automatically adjust trim to balance the hull, and then compute the
 > hydrostatic numbers. The free Carlson program for the shapes of the
 > plywood hull panels. I'm certain that's easier than computing the numbers
 > and "unfolding" the plywood panels by hand, for me anyway. Did I mention
 > the programs are free?
 >
Snip

There are several way\s to get the measures from a model down on
paper.
When there , it is somtimes somtimes not an idear to press the button
and "smooth" the resulting mesh , ------- sorry it's a long
explernation why "somtimes not" , but this deal with what unfolding
software you use.
But placing lines on the model that follow a plane, sort like cutting
the model in slices is possible in many way's , even with a camara but
then you still need to place lines on the model first and remember to
correct for the perspective. Acturly before drawings was interduced
back the 16' century, naval shipyards was totaly dependant on models ;
huge vessels was build from measures taken directly on scale models ,
but it was not to be able to acturly build the ship , but to be able
to build another one as good, as the one that showed good abilities.
------- And to be able to steal the good idears of the enemy , when
one of their ships was taken.
Now I will not start critic Carlson software but from what I seen , it
offer very limited oppotunities. But as I said I hardly remember it as
I only tried it once and instantly scrapped it, after testing it up
against my in-house applications. What I remember is that I was most
unplesant with hulls where the unfolding shuld be based on 6 or 8
strait lines forming a hull that smooth perfect with the rendering
smooth rutines but is still an edgy raw model.
--------- maby I shuld explain, that you can draw quite edgy models,
but when you render these the rendering software will smooth all but
show a hull that is much nicer, than if you stay with the raw 3D model
and make that unfold.
My designs of say a 7 meter hull ,divide each panel into maby 800
small strait lines ,making any foult smaller than what a weld or a
glue line will cover, beside as there are still some handywork
involved, a panel cut from a smooth rounded line, consisting of say
700 small strait lines of each one Cm. length , will be a complete
spline after first blow with the hand plane.

Please check the old presentation of the tradisional norwegian pram
redesigned for Cyber-Boat, here there are somthing like 200 small
lines along the boat ;

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/grafik/holmsbu-1-2.gif" target="_blank">http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/grafik/holmsbu-1-2.gif</a>

So realy I blame the software that amature builders havn't been able
to find easier user interface, ------ realy untill a 100 years ago and
since that to, lots of perfect designs been produced by builders being
better making a model than doing a drawing , what count is not the
program but the feel and will.

P.C.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

Per Corell (per.corell@privat.dk) writes:

 > Now I will not start critic Carlson software but from what I seen , it
 > offer very limited oppotunities.

It's because of the Carlson program's limit of 3 stations plus stem and
transom (calls them "bulkheads") to define the hull that I used the Blue
Peter program first. The Carlson program does insert two points on each
chine between stations for smoothing which can be done on these points
with a mouse pointer but that's still rough. For plotting it prints out
points at 8 frames which the user may locate. No doubt more points allow
for better definition of the hull, especially for larger hulls which are
on a larger scale.

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 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going?