halyrad systems for small boats?

What I did on a G cat we got was to cut the halyard about 2 feet above the
cleat when the sail is raised and tie the resulting cut ends to opposite
ends of a becket block.. After raising the sail, loop the halyard under the
cleat (or you could mount a cheek block below the cleat to thread the
halyard thru) back up thru the becket block and now you have 3:1 purchase,
less friction. Cleat the halyard and you are done. This also reduces the
loose halyard tail.
Fine tuning details: The location of the becket block will restrict how far
down the halyard shackel will go, so depending on how low you want the head
of the sail to be when lowered, you can adjust the cut. Having the "cut"
higher will "waste" more halyard tail when the sail is raised.
If the tail doesn't have to be threaded thru the lower turning "block" you
can leave the tail permanently threaded thru the becket block. When the sail
is raised, just pull some slack from the loop, and hook it under the cleat
or whatever.
I think Herreshoff used this system a lot.
I hope I've made this clear enough.

"Shaun Van Poecke" <shaunvanpoecke RemoveThis @bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:Bw20j.14356$CN4.13785@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Hi All,
> I have a 16' beach cat and the halyards are a source of bother for me.
> Like most of the beach cats Ive owned the method of tensioning the
> halyards is less than ideal. There are of course no winches. The only
> thing there is, is 2 horn cleats; one for main and one for jib.
>
> Its not so bad on this cat since there is a mast top halyard lock for the
> main, then luff tension is adjusted by downhall, but for the jib it's
> another story. It is very hard to get enough tension on that jib halyard,
> I try the usual method of putting a half turn around the horn clean then
> pulling out on the halyard (above the cleat) while trying to retension the
> tail. By this method i can bootstrap my way to some reasonable tension,
> but if the wind is blowing hard it's only a matter of time till that horn
> cleat slacks off a little. It really doesnt take much loss in tension to
> have the jib luff up there flapping in the wind.
>
> How do people solve this problem generally? Whats the best method to get
> some purchase up here so i can retension while on the water? i was
> thinking maybe 4:1 or better yet 8:1, but hopefully something simple and
> lockable.... maybe with a cam cleat rather than a horn cleat?
>
> Thanks,
> Shaun
>
 >> Stay informed about: halyrad systems for small boats? 

I know it's not realy nautical but on my 17' siren I used to Make a
truckers hitch up above the cleat then a turn around the cleat and tie
it off that way

>Hi All,
>I have a 16' beach cat and the halyards are a source of bother for me. Like
>most of the beach cats Ive owned the method of tensioning the halyards is
>less than ideal. There are of course no winches. The only thing there is,
>is 2 horn cleats; one for main and one for jib.
>
>Its not so bad on this cat since there is a mast top halyard lock for the
>main, then luff tension is adjusted by downhall, but for the jib it's
>another story. It is very hard to get enough tension on that jib halyard, I
>try the usual method of putting a half turn around the horn clean then
>pulling out on the halyard (above the cleat) while trying to retension the
>tail. By this method i can bootstrap my way to some reasonable tension, but
>if the wind is blowing hard it's only a matter of time till that horn cleat
>slacks off a little. It really doesnt take much loss in tension to have the
>jib luff up there flapping in the wind.
>
>How do people solve this problem generally? Whats the best method to get
>some purchase up here so i can retension while on the water? i was thinking
>maybe 4:1 or better yet 8:1, but hopefully something simple and lockable....
>maybe with a cam cleat rather than a horn cleat?
>
>Thanks,
>Shaun
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: halyrad systems for small boats? 

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 03:57:01 GMT, idontwantanyspam RemoveThis @thankyou.com (Drew
Dalgleish) wrote:

>I know it's not realy nautical but on my 17' siren I used to Make a
>truckers hitch up above the cleat then a turn around the cleat and tie
>it off that way
>
>>Hi All,
>>I have a 16' beach cat and the halyards are a source of bother for me. Like
>>most of the beach cats Ive owned the method of tensioning the halyards is
>>less than ideal. There are of course no winches. The only thing there is,
>>is 2 horn cleats; one for main and one for jib.
>>
>>Its not so bad on this cat since there is a mast top halyard lock for the
>>main, then luff tension is adjusted by downhall, but for the jib it's
>>another story. It is very hard to get enough tension on that jib halyard, I
>>try the usual method of putting a half turn around the horn clean then
>>pulling out on the halyard (above the cleat) while trying to retension the
>>tail. By this method i can bootstrap my way to some reasonable tension, but
>>if the wind is blowing hard it's only a matter of time till that horn cleat
>>slacks off a little. It really doesnt take much loss in tension to have the
>>jib luff up there flapping in the wind.
>>
>>How do people solve this problem generally? Whats the best method to get
>>some purchase up here so i can retension while on the water? i was thinking
>>maybe 4:1 or better yet 8:1, but hopefully something simple and lockable....
>>maybe with a cam cleat rather than a horn cleat?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Shaun


What are you using for halyard material? If it is not one of the new
non stretch synthetics then that is your problem.

Just guessing but your sail can't be much more then 15 or 16 feet on
the luff and with a single part line and the light material your sails
are made out of you ought to be able to pull enough tension in the
luff to almost tear the sail.

Another point (and I don't remember how that cat is rigged) is what
are you tensioning the jib against. I don't believe there is a back
stay and if all you have is shrouds that are angled back you can
probably pull some bend into the mast with the jib halyard.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(Note:remove underscores
from address for reply)
 >> Stay informed about: halyrad systems for small boats? 

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:48:47 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
<b_paige_125.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:


>>>I have a 16' beach cat and the halyards are a source of bother for me.


>Just guessing but your sail can't be much more then 15 or 16 feet on
>the luff
///
>Bruce-in-Bangkok

I picked up a good 24 foot mast from a 16 ft Hobie cat. It's
surprizing. Big top pulley with stainless halliard spliced to
synthetic.

Brian Whatrcott Altus OK
 >> Stay informed about: halyrad systems for small boats? 

This sounds pretty good and usable,
thumbing through some catalogues lately I was having a look at some
different vang systems, you know the type where there is a larger and
smaller pulley inline with each other rather than side by side. Some of
these have an integral V cleat too, and they arent madly expensive. I could
pretty easily get some good purchase this way, and have maybe just a quick
lock shackle to tie it in to the tail of tha halyard. While it is nice to
have all that extra purchase (especially for my partner who is smallish) the
big advantage for me is being able to tweak a little when on the water. We
sail on a lake, and sometimes you just need that extra inch of tension on
that halyard. With the current horn cleat around the front of the mast
setup, you really have to come back in to sure to do it - there is little
hope of fighting against a wind to get tension on it from behind the mast.

I'll probably leave the main halyard as it is. Was also thinking of
changing my jib sheet system over to 2:1 as well... does this make any
problems? Just having a block at the clew, rope tied to the same point that
the cleat is, then up to the clew and back down to the cleat. Again, this
is mostly for my partner who sometimes struggles with the jib sheet.

"Garland Gray II" <ggray RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote in message
news:WN60j.2320$bi1.902@newsfe15.lga...
> What I did on a G cat we got was to cut the halyard about 2 feet above the
> cleat when the sail is raised and tie the resulting cut ends to opposite
> ends of a becket block.. After raising the sail, loop the halyard under
> the cleat (or you could mount a cheek block below the cleat to thread the
> halyard thru) back up thru the becket block and now you have 3:1 purchase,
> less friction. Cleat the halyard and you are done. This also reduces the
> loose halyard tail.
> Fine tuning details: The location of the becket block will restrict how
> far down the halyard shackel will go, so depending on how low you want the
> head of the sail to be when lowered, you can adjust the cut. Having the
> "cut" higher will "waste" more halyard tail when the sail is raised.
> If the tail doesn't have to be threaded thru the lower turning "block" you
> can leave the tail permanently threaded thru the becket block. When the
> sail is raised, just pull some slack from the loop, and hook it under the
> cleat or whatever.
> I think Herreshoff used this system a lot.
> I hope I've made this clear enough.
>
> "Shaun Van Poecke" <shaunvanpoecke RemoveThis @bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:Bw20j.14356$CN4.13785@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Hi All,
>> I have a 16' beach cat and the halyards are a source of bother for me.
>> Like most of the beach cats Ive owned the method of tensioning the
>> halyards is less than ideal. There are of course no winches. The only
>> thing there is, is 2 horn cleats; one for main and one for jib.
>>
>> Its not so bad on this cat since there is a mast top halyard lock for the
>> main, then luff tension is adjusted by downhall, but for the jib it's
>> another story. It is very hard to get enough tension on that jib
>> halyard, I try the usual method of putting a half turn around the horn
>> clean then pulling out on the halyard (above the cleat) while trying to
>> retension the tail. By this method i can bootstrap my way to some
>> reasonable tension, but if the wind is blowing hard it's only a matter of
>> time till that horn cleat slacks off a little. It really doesnt take
>> much loss in tension to have the jib luff up there flapping in the wind.
>>
>> How do people solve this problem generally? Whats the best method to get
>> some purchase up here so i can retension while on the water? i was
>> thinking maybe 4:1 or better yet 8:1, but hopefully something simple and
>> lockable.... maybe with a cam cleat rather than a horn cleat?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Shaun
>>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: halyrad systems for small boats? 

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:53:26 GMT, "Shaun Van Poecke"
<shaunvanpoecke.DeleteThis@bigpond.com> wrote:

>This sounds pretty good and usable,
>thumbing through some catalogues lately I was having a look at some
>different vang systems, you know the type where there is a larger and
>smaller pulley inline with each other rather than side by side. Some of
>these have an integral V cleat too, and they arent madly expensive. I could
>pretty easily get some good purchase this way, and have maybe just a quick
>lock shackle to tie it in to the tail of tha halyard. While it is nice to
>have all that extra purchase (especially for my partner who is smallish) the
>big advantage for me is being able to tweak a little when on the water. We
>sail on a lake, and sometimes you just need that extra inch of tension on
>that halyard. With the current horn cleat around the front of the mast
>setup, you really have to come back in to sure to do it - there is little
>hope of fighting against a wind to get tension on it from behind the mast.
>
>I'll probably leave the main halyard as it is. Was also thinking of
>changing my jib sheet system over to 2:1 as well... does this make any
>problems? Just having a block at the clew, rope tied to the same point that
>the cleat is, then up to the clew and back down to the cleat. Again, this
>is mostly for my partner who sometimes struggles with the jib sheet.

That is the way they used to do it, back in the good old days before
sheet winches. Just means you need handle twice as much rope is all.

Or get a stronger partner =
Bruce-in-Bangkok
(Note:remove underscores
from address for reply)
 >> Stay informed about: halyrad systems for small boats? 

"Shaun Van Poecke" <shaunvanpoecke.TakeThisOut@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:Bw20j.14356$CN4.13785@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Hi All,
> I have a 16' beach cat and the halyards are a source of bother for me.
> Like most of the beach cats Ive owned the method of tensioning the
> halyards is less than ideal. There are of course no winches. The only
> thing there is, is 2 horn cleats; one for main and one for jib.
>
> Its not so bad on this cat since there is a mast top halyard lock for the
> main, then luff tension is adjusted by downhall, but for the jib it's
> another story. It is very hard to get enough tension on that jib halyard,
> I try the usual method of putting a half turn around the horn clean then
> pulling out on the halyard (above the cleat) while trying to retension the
> tail. By this method i can bootstrap my way to some reasonable tension,
> but if the wind is blowing hard it's only a matter of time till that horn
> cleat slacks off a little. It really doesnt take much loss in tension to
> have the jib luff up there flapping in the wind.
>
> How do people solve this problem generally? Whats the best method to get
> some purchase up here so i can retension while on the water? i was
> thinking maybe 4:1 or better yet 8:1, but hopefully something simple and
> lockable.... maybe with a cam cleat rather than a horn cleat?
>
> Thanks,
> Shaun

I've fitted a highfield lever to both my dinghies. These make it very easy
to adjust the tension. I do have wire halyards for the jib/genoa though.

Regards,

Laurie.
>
>


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 >> Stay informed about: halyrad systems for small boats? 

""Schöön Martin"" <Martin.Schoon DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:s5zwssexjct.fsf@gmail.com...
> "Shaun Van Poecke" <shaunvanpoecke DeleteThis @bigpond.com> writes:
>
>> Hi All,
>> I have a 16' beach cat and the halyards are a source of bother for me.
>> Like
> <snip>
>> another story. It is very hard to get enough tension on that jib
>> halyard, I
>> try the usual method of putting a half turn around the horn clean then
>> pulling out on the halyard (above the cleat) while trying to retension
>> the
>> tail. By this method i can bootstrap my way to some reasonable tension,
>> but
>> if the wind is blowing hard it's only a matter of time till that horn
>> cleat
>> slacks off a little. It really doesnt take much loss in tension to have
>> the
>> jib luff up there flapping in the wind.
>>
> This sounds more like your lines are relatives to the ones on
> my parents old 5 m monohull. Those halyards were 'rubber bands'.
>
> On my 8 m cat I use the method you describe without issues.
> Today I use a very good 8mm Dyneema line. Before that I used a
> 6 mm Dyneema line which worked pretty well to but the stiffer
> 8 mm line is definitely better. (Diameters include cover)
>
> What type of line do you use?
>
> Here is my boat:
> http://hem.bredband.net/b262106/
>
> --
> Martin Schöön <martin.schoon DeleteThis @gmail.com>
>
> "Problems worthy of attack
> prove their worth by hitting back"
> Piet Hein
 >> Stay informed about: halyrad systems for small boats? 

Hi Martin,
I have come across your website before, and i must say - a very handsome
boat! I had looked at the spider a couple of years ago when i was
considering building a coastal cruiser cat for the whitsunday area of
australia. In the end, I couldnt justify the cost for the amount of itme i
can spend sailing in a year. I ended up just chartering when i sail.

This cat is definitely in the cheaper end of the spectrum but can still be
fun for me to sail. It is never raced. It is sailed on a lake in the
desert in the middle of australia which is quite close to my house, but
there are only a couple of guys in town with boats. I think it can sail
quite reasonably, but has been jury rigged many times over the years and is
in need of a bit of a refit.

Both halyards are wire rope which is then tied to spectra cord. The main
halyard is not so critical since it has a mast top lock and then downhall
tension is taken up with a cunningham with plenty of purchase, but the jib
has only about 4feet of 5mm spectra with no purchase at all. I have ordered
the vang type block with some new rope (all lines are being replaced anyway)
and will let you know how it goes. I have ordered enough rope to replace
the entire halyard with rope, and was thinking to get rid of the wire rope
section of the halyard... does this sound like a good idea? Not too sure

Thanks


""Schöön Martin"" <Martin.Schoon.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:s5zwssexjct.fsf@gmail.com...
> "Shaun Van Poecke" <shaunvanpoecke.DeleteThis@bigpond.com> writes:
>
>> Hi All,
>> I have a 16' beach cat and the halyards are a source of bother for me.
>> Like
> <snip>
>> another story. It is very hard to get enough tension on that jib
>> halyard, I
>> try the usual method of putting a half turn around the horn clean then
>> pulling out on the halyard (above the cleat) while trying to retension
>> the
>> tail. By this method i can bootstrap my way to some reasonable tension,
>> but
>> if the wind is blowing hard it's only a matter of time till that horn
>> cleat
>> slacks off a little. It really doesnt take much loss in tension to have
>> the
>> jib luff up there flapping in the wind.
>>
> This sounds more like your lines are relatives to the ones on
> my parents old 5 m monohull. Those halyards were 'rubber bands'.
>
> On my 8 m cat I use the method you describe without issues.
> Today I use a very good 8mm Dyneema line. Before that I used a
> 6 mm Dyneema line which worked pretty well to but the stiffer
> 8 mm line is definitely better. (Diameters include cover)
>
> What type of line do you use?
>
> Here is my boat:
> http://hem.bredband.net/b262106/
>
> --
> Martin Schöön <martin.schoon.DeleteThis@gmail.com>
>
> "Problems worthy of attack
> prove their worth by hitting back"
> Piet Hein
 >> Stay informed about: halyrad systems for small boats? 

"Shaun Van Poecke" <shaunvanpoecke.DeleteThis@bigpond.com> writes:

> Hi Martin,
> I have come across your website before, and i must say - a very handsome
> boat!

I am blushing.
>
> This cat is definitely in the cheaper end of the spectrum but can still be
> fun for me to sail. It is never raced. It is sailed on a lake in the
> desert in the middle of australia which is quite close to my house, but

I am just back from a quick business trip to another desert: the
Phoenix-Tempe-Scottsdale valley of Arizona. Guess what? It was overcast
day one and rained all of day two...
>
> Both halyards are wire rope which is then tied to spectra cord.

Now I am confused. I used to have wire+tail halyards and had no
stretch problems with those. I think the jib halyard wire was 4 mm
and the tail an 8 mm polyester double braid (pre-stretched).

> halyard is not so critical since it has a mast top lock and then downhall
> tension is taken up with a cunningham with plenty of purchase, but the jib
> has only about 4feet of 5mm spectra with no purchase at all.

So, what you are saying here is you don't have any other way---like
down haul or so---to tension the jib luff other than what you can
do by hand on the halyard and the cleat? Then I guess your problem is
not halyard stretch but lack of tension on the jib luff.

> the vang type block with some new rope (all lines are being replaced anyway)
> and will let you know how it goes. I have ordered enough rope to replace
> the entire halyard with rope, and was thinking to get rid of the wire rope
> section of the halyard... does this sound like a good idea?
>
Maybe not, see above.

Cheers,

--
Martin Schöön "Problems worthy of attack
show their worth by hitting back."
Piet Hein
 >> Stay informed about: halyrad systems for small boats?