Need some guidance

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of the impact on steering response, but
now that I think about it, it makes sense. The Kingston15 has a small
daggerboard offset from center (I believe the keel would eliminate the need
for that, just as you mentioned). If the keel extends about 8 inches below
the hull, I don't see much negative impact on loading on the trailer.

I'm not familiar with all the boating terminology. What is the name for the
style where the cabin top extends all the way to the hull? Anyway, I don't
see boats with this cabin style that also have a full length keel. Perhaps
I'm overestimating the value of the long keel for absorbing impact damage.


"William R. Watt" <ag384.RemoveThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:csom8s$c9$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...
 >
 > "Bruce C." (bwc.nospam@comcast.net) writes:
 >
  > > 1. How significant is a full length keel. What are the plusses and
minuses?
 >
 > plus: shallow draft when sailing
 > roomier cabin without centreboard trunk
 > minus: poorer steering response
 > harder to get on and off a trailer
 >
 >
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:24:15 -0600, "Bruce C."
<bwc.nospam.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote:

 >We are getting close to retirement and want to spend more time on the water.

=====================================

If you really want to spend more time on the water, I'd recommend
buying a good used boat. There are a lot out there and prices are
very negotiable.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Need some guidance 

"Bruce C." (bwc.nospam@comcast.net) writes:

 >
 > I'm not familiar with all the boating terminology. What is the name for the
 > style where the cabin top extends all the way to the hull? Anyway, I don't
 > see boats with this cabin style that also have a full length keel. Perhaps
 > I'm overestimating the value of the long keel for absorbing impact damage.

I think the term you're looking for is "flush deck".

A term for the type of boat you are writing about is "pocket cruiser".

I roughly designed an inexpensive lightweight one for canal and river
sailing and put the design steps on my website (see below) under "Boats,
Solo15". It has an offset centreboard. I guess that would be a "bilgeboard".
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You might be a candidate for Bolger's Birdwatcher design. I have found
it to be a wonderful trailer-sailer, camp-cruiser. I wrote about it in
WoodenBoat, July/August 2004 and am now offering to build them in
repeat production. Some illustrations at my website
www.adirondackgoodboat.com
 >> Stay informed about: Need some guidance 

Read about our Vagabond 20 on our message board. I am the designer and
will answer questions there:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://bateau2.com" target="_blank">http://bateau2.com</a>
Note that we will soon show a VG18.
I suppose you are not interested in the Adelie 16 because it doesn't
have a sunken cockpit but I can assure you that it sails much better
than the other one you consider.

Jacques from bateau.com


Bruce C. wrote:
 > I'm looking to build a small boat for weekend outings and maybe lake
or
 > river tours lasting probably up to about a week. Nothing long term.
Just me
 > and my wife. I haven't found a design on the web that I especially
like, but
 > I think I can combine the features of 3 boats to make something
closer to
 > what I want.
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Need some guidance 

William R. Watt (ag384@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:

 > I roughly designed an inexpensive lightweight one for canal and river
 > sailing and put the design steps on my website (see below) under "Boats,
 > Solo15". It has an offset centreboard. I guess that would be a "bilgeboard".

It was not my intention to begin a string of commercial postings. I should
clarify that the design above is free but incomplete. I did to help other
amateurs like myself desing their own boats. I do not design or build
boats for profit, apart from entering the ocassional design in a contest
for amateurs.

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On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:45:16 -0600, "Bruce C."
<bwc.nospam RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:

 >Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of the impact on steering response, but
 >now that I think about it, it makes sense. The Kingston15 has a small
 >daggerboard offset from center (I believe the keel would eliminate the need
 >for that, just as you mentioned). If the keel extends about 8 inches below
 >the hull, I don't see much negative impact on loading on the trailer.
 >
 >I'm not familiar with all the boating terminology. What is the name for the
 >style where the cabin top extends all the way to the hull? Anyway, I don't
 >see boats with this cabin style that also have a full length keel. Perhaps
 >I'm overestimating the value of the long keel for absorbing impact damage.
 >
 >
 >"William R. Watt" <ag384 RemoveThis @FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
 >news:csom8s$c9$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...
  >>
  >> "Bruce C." (bwc.nospam@comcast.net) writes:
  >>
   >> > 1. How significant is a full length keel. What are the plusses and
 >minuses?
  >>
  >> plus: shallow draft when sailing
  >> roomier cabin without centreboard trunk
  >> minus: poorer steering response
  >> harder to get on and off a trailer
  >>
  >>
Bruce, you are probably not going to like this advice, but you should
learn to sail on good modern professionally designed boats. Then sail
enough on different boats to find out what you really like, and how
you like to use a sailboat.

After a few years of that, you might be in a position to imagine your
ideal boat.

All you are doing now is hypothesizing from nothing.

Been there, done that.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the ass you have to kiss today." --Former mayor Ciancia<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Need some guidance 

Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:
<SNIP>

 >Bruce, you are probably not going to like this advice, but you should
 >learn to sail on good modern professionally designed boats. Then sail
 >enough on different boats to find out what you really like, and how
 >you like to use a sailboat.
 >
 >After a few years of that, you might be in a position to imagine your
 >ideal boat.
 >
 >All you are doing now is hypothesizing from nothing.
 >
 >Been there, done that.
 >
 >
 >
 >Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a
 >
 >
 >
Good advice. Sound older boats are inexpensive, even relative to the
cost of building a boat yourself. I think that building a boat only
makes sense only if you have clear and sound idea of what you want and
can't find same on the market. If you buy an older boat and
subsequently sell it, you may gain or lose a small fraction on the
exchange. If you build a boat to a wonky design or with indifferent
materials or workmanship, the product could be literally worthless.
So, buy a good old boat and go get some experience.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Need some guidance 

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:54:24 -0500, Jim Conlin <conlin DeleteThis @comcast.net>
wrote:

 >So, buy a good old boat and go get some experience.

============================================

Absolutely right. Building a boat of any size at all is a very big
project that is guaranteed to take 2 or 3 times longer than your
wildest estimate, and with matching cost over runs. If you really
want to build a boat I'd recommend something small.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Need some guidance 

I want to thank everyone for their comments and suggestions. I think I
learned a few things in the exchange.

I guess my idea about the value of a full length keel was not consistent
with current designs.

I still like the flush deck design because I think it gives the most cabin
for similar boat lengths.

I think I still like the idea of a deck stepped mast.

William, I had a look at your Solo15 design and I like all the analysis you
have put into it. It sounds like it is close to what I'm looking for (should
be rather easy to modify to a flush deck design).

The suggestion to purchase a used boat is probably the best for the long
term. I think the part that scares me is the stories I read about the
extensive work involved in repairing older boats that have been neglected.
I'm not sure I would be able to spot signs of neglect or pending failure.
I'm cautious about "buying someone elses problems". If I build it from
scratch, then I'll know it inside and out and when it needs extensive
maintenance, I will be confident in my ability to fix it because I'll know
what was there originally.

I'm very confident I can build the hull and finish the cabin without any
significant problems. I'm not so sure I understand all the rigging.

I think I'll wait on Jacques and see what the VG18 looks like. And I'll look
closer at the used boats.



"William R. Watt" <ag384.DeleteThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:csr8j7$75$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...
 >
 > William R. Watt (ag384@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
 >
  > > I roughly designed an inexpensive lightweight one for canal and river
  > > sailing and put the design steps on my website (see below) under "Boats,
  > > Solo15". It has an offset centreboard. I guess that would be a
"bilgeboard".
 >
 > It was not my intention to begin a string of commercial postings. I should
 > clarify that the design above is free but incomplete. I did to help other
 > amateurs like myself desing their own boats. I do not design or build
 > boats for profit, apart from entering the ocassional design in a contest
 > for amateurs.
 >
 > --
 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
 > William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
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 >> Stay informed about: Need some guidance 

"Frugal Yachting", written by a Potter 15 owner, contains a survey of
popular pocket cruisers which you might find interesting. Our public
library has a copy.

If there is any doubt about a used boat it's possbile to have it checked
over by a surveyor. I'd 'phone a local sailing club and ask for referals.
Also, local sailing clubs are a good place to look for used boats for sale.
They usually have a list of club member boats for sale, nowadays often on a
club website.
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