Dinghy sailing in bigger winds

"toad" <toad_oftoadhall RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1191060939.185400.27160@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On 29 Sep, 10:29, "Duncan Heenan" <duncanhee... RemoveThis @tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> There's swell, and there's swell.
>> Breaking waves can happen in a lot less than a f10. Inded if you look at
>> the charts for many of the coasts of Ireland and parts of the coast of
>> the
>> Isle of Man, which I was quoting from, you'll see 'breakers' marked,
>> which
>> indicate areas which often have breaking waves in much less than f10
>> winds.
>> Also, simply wading in to the beach may be an option where there is a
>> nice
>> sandy beach, but at the base of cliffs or over rocks (both of which also
>> cause breaking waves) it is impossible, and dangerous to try.
>> I can see that some of my experience may not be relevant to these lads
>> who
>> may well be in a more friendly environment
>
> Seeking out overfalls while battling alone in conditions where even a
> low performance dinghy needs reefs; away from any kind of hospitable
> landing place? All without risk of a capsize.
>
> Impressive.
>
> ...but rather hard to reconcile with the Duncan Heenan who wrote to a
> sailing mag to admit he hired a charter boat in the calm shelter of
> the Solent and took it back early because he couldn't manage.
>
> The thing about exploing cliffs by dinghy is that, no matter how
> intimidating and sheer and high and crumbling they seem, as you get
> closer in there always seems to be somewhere you can get into.
>
You are off your trolley again Toad. I wrote no such letter.
I did write a reply though, which was published. It is reproduced below:
----- Original Message -----
From: duncanheenan RemoveThis @tiscali.co.uk
To: Yachting_Monthly RemoveThis @ipcmedia.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:12 PM
Subject: Letters to the Editor - 'Exam without Tides' YM Jan 07

Dear Sirs,
I can sympathise with 'name & address supplied's ' embarrassment at going
aground and bashing in to another boat in one of the Solent rivers - who
hasn't done something like that! However, to blame that on having passed his
RYA test in 'non- tidal' Gibraltar is inaccurate and sounds like an excuse
for his own carelessness.
I kept a boat in Gibraltar for 4 years and can confirm that the tidal
streams east of Tarifa and indeed in Gibraltar Bay itself are strong and
tricky enough to test the best. If you don't believe me, read Colin Thomas's
excellent 'The Straits Sailing Handbook' which gives full details. I now
keep a boat in the Solent and know well that the tidal streams are strong
and tricky there too, but they are well documented for those who care to
look.
I think what Mr Supplied's experience illustrates is that seamanship is not
conferred by a piece of paper alone, but by experience and attention. He did
exactly the wrong thing in going home in disgust, as he has not gone out
again and learned from his mistakes, which is the best teacher of the lot.
Yours faithfully,
Duncan Heenan
--------------

And I did not say reefing will eliminate capsizes, merely reduce the risk.
Similarly I never said that I seek out overfalls, merely that 'breakers' can
be caused in less than f10 which is what you asserted. However, when
exploring in a cruising dinghy you can get caught out, and I have been, and
ended up in conditions i did not expect.
When attempting to take the piss, it's always better to remain accurate, as
otherwise you look like rather silly.
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

On 29 Sep, 11:51, "Duncan Heenan" <duncanhee....TakeThisOut@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> "toad" <toad_oftoadh....TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:1191060939.185400.27160@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On 29 Sep, 10:29, "Duncan Heenan" <duncanhee....TakeThisOut@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> There's swell, and there's swell.
> >> Breaking waves can happen in a lot less than a f10. Inded if you look at
> >> the charts for many of the coasts of Ireland and parts of the coast of
> >> the
> >> Isle of Man, which I was quoting from, you'll see 'breakers' marked,
> >> which
> >> indicate areas which often have breaking waves in much less than f10
> >> winds.
> >> Also, simply wading in to the beach may be an option where there is a
> >> nice
> >> sandy beach, but at the base of cliffs or over rocks (both of which also
> >> cause breaking waves) it is impossible, and dangerous to try.
> >> I can see that some of my experience may not be relevant to these lads
> >> who
> >> may well be in a more friendly environment
>
> > Seeking out overfalls while battling alone in conditions where even a
> > low performance dinghy needs reefs; away from any kind of hospitable
> > landing place? All without risk of a capsize.
>
> > Impressive.
>
> > ...but rather hard to reconcile with the Duncan Heenan who wrote to a
> > sailing mag to admit he hired a charter boat in the calm shelter of
> > the Solent and took it back early because he couldn't manage.
>
> > The thing about exploing cliffs by dinghy is that, no matter how
> > intimidating and sheer and high and crumbling they seem, as you get
> > closer in there always seems to be somewhere you can get into.
>
> You are off your trolley again Toad. I wrote no such letter.
> I did write a reply though, which was published. It is reproduced below:

Whoops. Please accept my apologies. It was a genuine mistake.

> When attempting to take the piss, it's always better to remain accurate, as
> otherwise you look like rather silly.

Sadly this is true, and all I can do is apologise.

I'm pretty certain you must have been misquoted on UKRS at some point
because I ditinctly recal the _original_ letter being attributed to
you but google groups hasn't helped.
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

On 29 Sep, 15:55, Matt Colie <mattco... DeleteThis @providenospam.net> wrote:

> There are several issues here that have been completely ignored.
> 1 - A cadet class dinghy is set with more sail than 75k of kids can
> handle in a blow <given>.

I don't buy that. I've seen drastically underweight crews handle all
kinds of exotic powerful boats in all kinds of conditions. I've
singlehanded a fireball in a f5 and I've seen someone else single hand
a 505 in the same kind of wind.

> 4 - The boat is swampable(?) self rescue may not be trivial.
> (We do not know where the boys are sailing and knocking down may be
> life threatening due to temperature.)

We can assume they are wearing appropriate kit. Wet or Dry suit. The
days when people sailed open boats in tweed suits are long gone. We
can assume they are safe. I think we can assume a cadet can be safely
righted even if it doesn't come up dry like modern classes.

>In actual fact, the upper end of this scale will be
> approaching survival sailing in such a boat.

Survival? Survival? Perlease!
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

And toad wrote:
>> The complete lack of any provision for reefing dinghy sails would seem
>> to indicate that it is quite possible to effectively de-power without
>> reefing. IMHO reefing would be a clumsy, inflexible and agricultural
>> method to reduce power on a dinghy. Getting used to handling and
>> enjoying the power and getting used to reducing it using standard
>> methods would be far more profitable for these two lads.
>>
>
> I think there is a cultural difference here. I suspect that toad has
> only sailed with a safety boat in attendance. Under these
> circumstances a capsize is just a minor inconvenience and a sail that
> is too big for the wind is just an added excitement. If sailing alone
> without safety cover an oversize sail becomes life threatening.
>
> If you are actually trying to get somewhere, rather than just sailing
> round some cans, then the chance of a capsize becomes much less
> desirable.
>
> I have only ever sailed with a couple of dinghies that were unable to
> reef. On each boat this has caused safety problems with a commitment
> by the owners to fit reef points.
>
> An alternative may be a set of heavy weather sails.
> --
> Alastair

We seem to have two separate issues in this flame war and none have
really answered Stephan's original questions.

His first question was (this is what they have discussed) what else can
we do?
- This has gotten one answer. Reef - not a bad answer, but see below.

The Other question was what sources for information about heavy weather
dinghy sailing might be of assistance.
- One book was suggested. It is a good book for performance sailing,
but I am not at all sure that it will be of value for this specific
case. There are indeed few references for heavy weather dinghy sailing
that I have found.

There are several issues here that have been completely ignored.
1 - A cadet class dinghy is set with more sail than 75k of kids can
handle in a blow <given>.
2 - Very few (virtually none) small boat classes have reefing capability
in the original plans <given>.
3 - Reefing a dinghy underway will be very nearly impossible <given>.
4 - The boat is swampable(?) self rescue may not be trivial.
(We do not know where the boys are sailing and knocking down may be
life threatening due to temperature.)

While f4 is only 11-16kts, 20-29km/h, 5.5-8m/s, the upper end of this
value is easily more than such a boat with a light crew will be easily
manageable. In actual fact, the upper end of this scale will be
approaching survival sailing in such a boat.

The efforts that Stephen has mentioned mostly have merit, though I am
not sure what the rake will get you except increased helm load. It does
not look like this is something that the Cadet does easily. Flattening
sails is a good first step.

Stephen and Crew,

I don't know the cadet class very well. I have seen them in my travels
but that is all.

Are you talking about going out in f4 to sail/practice, having
conditions change after setting out or competing in heavy air
conditions. This may make some changes in how this can be handled.

If you are regularly completing, you might get an old main from someone
to put reef points in and then get the kids used to reefing before it is
required. I very much doubt that they will be able to do this underway.
That may allow them to sail in conditions that would normally be very
difficult to handle.
Old Rule - If you think maybe you should reef, you probably should have
reefed already.

Tell them to dump (drop) the headsail as soon as handling gets tough (if
the class will control without it). Unfortunately, flogging a sail will
dramatically shorten its useful life.

I will be sailing for a six decade with the start of the next season. I
will not relate stories, but I have more than a few.

Matt Colie
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

Pete <pstyles.RemoveThis@spamlessntlworld.com> writes:

> T. Newsman wrote:
>
>> Schöön Martin <Martin.Schoon.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Frank Bethwaithe's 10+ years old book High Performance Sailing
>>>is full of tuning and handling tips in various wind and wave
>>>conditions.
>>>
>>>--
>>
>> It's available on amazon uk from about 15 GBP.
>>
>> Stan
> ... but it's one hell of a technical read, and I would question

I don't think so but then I am used to reading peer reviewed
scientific literature.

Very roughly speaking that book contains three sections: One on
how boats work and boat design, one on wind and weather and one
on boat handling and tuning. The latter two are very good and
should be read by anyone who want to improve his or hers sailing
skills. It may be too much for the OP's sons but should be OK
for the OP I think.

But reading will not be enough. Practice is what makes it work
in the end.

--
Martin Schöön "Problems worthy of attack
show their worth by hitting back."
Piet Hein
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

toad wrote:
> On 29 Sep, 15:55, Matt Colie <mattco....DeleteThis@providenospam.net> wrote:
>
>> There are several issues here that have been completely ignored.
>> 1 - A cadet class dinghy is set with more sail than 75k of kids can
>> handle in a blow <given>.
>
> I don't buy that. I've seen drastically underweight crews handle all
> kinds of exotic powerful boats in all kinds of conditions. I've
> singlehanded a fireball in a f5 and I've seen someone else single hand
> a 505 in the same kind of wind.
Both Fireball and 505 (home turf here folks) have hiking gear, are much
bigger boats, are not floodable and are not limited to 17year olds
(cadet class rule). I've had 505s out in weather that really didn't
make any sense at all and it was a blast. I was not 17, I alone was
over 75kg and I had help of the same weight. The officer on the bridge
timed us with his radar. He still doesn't believe it.
>
>> 4 - The boat is swampable(?) self rescue may not be trivial.
>> (We do not know where the boys are sailing and knocking down may be
>> life threatening due to temperature.)
>
> We can assume they are wearing appropriate kit. Wet or Dry suit.
We can not assume this. You obviously never tried to equip young
sailors (as I have - they have their own now). It is hard enough
keeping them in PFDs that fit let alone your esoteric gear that you are
assuming. The reason that youth sailing programs use "dry ass" boats is
so this sort of expensive gear that will be out grown is not required.
The days when people sailed open boats in tweed suits are long gone. We
> can assume they are safe. I think we can assume a cadet can be safely
> righted even if it doesn't come up dry like modern classes.
You are carefully running an apples and oranges comparison here. The
"modern" classes are all well good, but they are not for children. One
of the objects of a youth sailing program is not to scare the youth out
of sailing.
>
>> In actual fact, the upper end of this scale will be
>> approaching survival sailing in such a boat.
>
> Survival? Survival? Perlease!
I have sailed or taught sailing in five pram (or close like Dyer Dhow)
classes over about thirty years (my wife thinks its more). That is my
opinion. As these boats will not develop the velocity that the above
mentioned classes do, hence, the foils can simply not create an
equivalent load and control capacity. The sailplan will be creating
much more force regardless of the point of sail. This can and will make
the smaller boats much harder to handle than one might expect.

Matt Colie (I use a name that those that know me recognize)
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

"toad" <toad_oftoadhall.TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1191079650.651543.60780@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> On 29 Sep, 11:51, "Duncan Heenan" <duncanhee....TakeThisOut@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> "toad" <toad_oftoadh....TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1191060939.185400.27160@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 29 Sep, 10:29, "Duncan Heenan" <duncanhee....TakeThisOut@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >> There's swell, and there's swell.
>> >> Breaking waves can happen in a lot less than a f10. Inded if you look
>> >> at
>> >> the charts for many of the coasts of Ireland and parts of the coast of
>> >> the
>> >> Isle of Man, which I was quoting from, you'll see 'breakers' marked,
>> >> which
>> >> indicate areas which often have breaking waves in much less than f10
>> >> winds.
>> >> Also, simply wading in to the beach may be an option where there is a
>> >> nice
>> >> sandy beach, but at the base of cliffs or over rocks (both of which
>> >> also
>> >> cause breaking waves) it is impossible, and dangerous to try.
>> >> I can see that some of my experience may not be relevant to these lads
>> >> who
>> >> may well be in a more friendly environment
>>
>> > Seeking out overfalls while battling alone in conditions where even a
>> > low performance dinghy needs reefs; away from any kind of hospitable
>> > landing place? All without risk of a capsize.
>>
>> > Impressive.
>>
>> > ...but rather hard to reconcile with the Duncan Heenan who wrote to a
>> > sailing mag to admit he hired a charter boat in the calm shelter of
>> > the Solent and took it back early because he couldn't manage.
>>
>> > The thing about exploing cliffs by dinghy is that, no matter how
>> > intimidating and sheer and high and crumbling they seem, as you get
>> > closer in there always seems to be somewhere you can get into.
>>
>> You are off your trolley again Toad. I wrote no such letter.
>> I did write a reply though, which was published. It is reproduced below:
>
> Whoops. Please accept my apologies. It was a genuine mistake.
>
>> When attempting to take the piss, it's always better to remain accurate,
>> as
>> otherwise you look like rather silly.
>
> Sadly this is true, and all I can do is apologise.
>
> I'm pretty certain you must have been misquoted on UKRS at some point
> because I ditinctly recal the _original_ letter being attributed to
> you but google groups hasn't helped.

Apology accepted. (Leave the gin alone until after teatime.)
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

>>>>Frank Bethwaithe's 10+ years old book High Performance Sailing
>>>>is full of tuning and handling tips in various wind and wave
>>>>conditions.
>> ... but it's one hell of a technical read, and I would question
> I don't think so but then I am used to reading peer reviewed
> scientific literature.
> Very roughly speaking that book contains three sections: One on
> how boats work and boat design, one on wind and weather and one
> on boat handling and tuning. The latter two are very good and
> should be read by anyone who want to improve his or hers sailing
> skills. It may be too much for the OP's sons but should be OK
> for the OP I think.
> But reading will not be enough. Practice is what makes it work
> in the end.

The Bethwaite book is great, but will be OTT for the normal helm/crew of a
Cadet.

A little and often rings true - any adult interested in raising their game
in sailing will benefit by regularly reading a little before they go for a
sail, then re-reading it afterwards to help it sink in. Dragging some boats
with telltails on their masts is of limited interest, as is the sections on
the Tasar dinghy, but much of the book applies to those who sail sailing
boats in general, not just to those who have (had) 18 foot skiffs.

And to those who are used to technical documentation, yes, it is a good deal
lighter and more interesting than system-of-system document Fagan-style peer
review statistics.....

A
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

Matt Colie wrote:
<snip>
> There are several issues here that have been completely ignored.
> 1 - A cadet class dinghy is set with more sail than 75k of kids can
> handle in a blow <given>.
</snip>


Matt,

I must take issue with you there.

A Cadet has, according to the UK web site, a sail area of "4.55 / 4.65
square metres". I assume that this is the white sail and spinnaker
area, it sounds about right.

A Laser has a sail area of 7 square metres.

According to this, if 75Kg is too light for a Cadet with 4.55 square
metres, a Laser sailor needs to be well over (75/4.55*7)Kg, that's
115Kg. I assure you that most laser sailors are not that heavy.

Andy
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

Andy Champ wrote:
> Matt Colie wrote:
> <snip>
>> There are several issues here that have been completely ignored.
>> 1 - A cadet class dinghy is set with more sail than 75k of kids can
>> handle in a blow <given>.
> </snip>
>
>
> Matt,
>
> I must take issue with you there.
>
> A Cadet has, according to the UK web site, a sail area of "4.55 / 4.65
> square metres". I assume that this is the white sail and spinnaker
> area, it sounds about right.
>
> A Laser has a sail area of 7 square metres.
>
> According to this, if 75Kg is too light for a Cadet with 4.55 square
> metres, a Laser sailor needs to be well over (75/4.55*7)Kg, that's
> 115Kg. I assure you that most laser sailors are not that heavy.
>
> Andy
Andy,

The big difference, is the dynamic characteristics of the two boats. It
is much more than the sail area to weight ratio.

There is also a big difference in the fact that a Lazer is a "wet ass"
boat (sailboard) and can not flood.

My Lazer has very different performance characteristics than any pram.
It will accelerate and plane, thus both decreasing the hull drag and
increasing the hydrodynamic load capability of the foils (board and
rudder). This allows me to pull the relative wind forward with my own
forward velocity and thereby change the effective trim without moving
anything. No pram that I know of can do this.

There is also the experience factor here. If both onboard a Cadet are
as old as the class allows, I quite certainly have more sailing
experience than any two cadets sailing. This does matter. IMHO

Matt Colie
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

Well, chaps and chapesses

I am overwhelmed by your kindness and knowledge, one and all.

Rounding up (and responding to) one or two point with some more
input,

- my boys are aged 12 and 7 and setting out on their sailing careers.
- their objective currently is indeed sailing round cans. We're doing
the East Zone Championship today, for example.
- I haven't ever seen a Cadet sail with reefing points. Mike Mac is
chief sailmaker, you may know him. Not sure whether class rules would
allow it even. However:
- Sails cut flat in the first place is a really interesting thought
process
- undeniably your are all saying "technique" and givin the techniques
- we already discovered that the boat becomes much more stable on a
run in big winds because of the reduction in apparent wind
- last time out they threw the spinnaker up when they were already on
a reach, it set in an instant, filled and flattened them - too much
lateral power. Any thoughts on this???
- the "string-pulling" techniques will need working out but they are
clearly the right route. Meantime I can't thank you all enough.
- with the little one (Alex) just 7, I have really some sympathy with
the gentler approach intimated but on balance I think we have to go
through that barrier and rely on the "yee-ha" method, tough as it may
seem on Alex right now.

Clearly there is a big fund of brilliant knowledge on tap in this
group and I am very grateful.

Stephen Page
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

Stephen Page <steve DeleteThis @the-page-family.net> writes:

> - their objective currently is indeed sailing round cans. We're doing
> the East Zone Championship today, for example.

If Cadet sailors are a friendly crowd there should be a lot of advice
to be found during a regatta weekend.

> - last time out they threw the spinnaker up when they were already on
> a reach, it set in an instant, filled and flattened them - too much
> lateral power. Any thoughts on this???

They weren't sailing deep enough when they launched the spi?

--
Martin Schöön "Problems worthy of attack
show their worth by hitting back."
Piet Hein
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

Matt Colie wrote:
> And toad wrote:
>
>
>
> We seem to have two separate issues in this flame war and none have
> really answered Stephan's original questions.
>
To put the record straight, not really a flame war. Uk.rec.sailing -
often strong opinions, often robustly stated, but as a rule amongst folk
with mutual respect.
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds