Am I too fat for this boat?

In a previous article, Drew Cutter <andrewc.TakeThisOut@wcoil.com> said:
 >Question is it too snug to exit if you find yourself in trouble when you
 >flip ? The site i saw said it was for average size paddler. When it says

I doubt it. I haven't done a exit in it, but I've done exits before where
you have to push down on the cockpit rim to get out.

 >the water. I would opt for a boat that's for 180 lbs + person. The tilt
 >(without thinking) part would worry me if you are an inexperience

I'm new to kayaks, but I've been paddling canoes for 30 years. Boat
handling isn't an issue - this is the first one I've tried where I felt
really a part of the boat.

 >paddler. Try the boat when a motor boat passes you by or on a windy day.

Didn't have any problems with minor wake today, but yeah, I should take it
out on the lake. Everything I've read says it's a good boat for that.

 >Hope this helps. This should narrow your choices down. Your local shop
 >should have demo days.

I've been working my way through their rental boats, trying to give every
boat a few hours at least. This one's my favourite so far.

--
Paul Tomblin <ptomblin.TakeThisOut@xcski.com> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/" target="_blank">http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/</a>
OTOH, the general theme is that lusers should not be allowed to have
computers, cars, guns or genitalia.
-- Anthony DeBoer<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Am I too fat for this boat? 

ptomblin+netnews@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) wrote in message news:<cg81bk$7v2$1@allhats.xcski.com>...
 > I'm 6'2", 255 pounds. Today I tried out a Valley Avocet RM. It was a
 > very nice experience, and it seems to be destined to become my favourite
 > boat. Very responsive, tracked well, turned well, nice and narrow so I
 > could paddle close, and the seat was so snug I could tilt and balance it
 > without thinking about it. But one web site I see recommends it for
 > paddlers under 160 pounds. Besides being unable to carry any gear, what
 > other drawbacks would I have if I were to use this boat?


Repliyed at
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://waterandpaddles.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=kayak&action=display&num=1093158165&start=0" target="_blank">http://waterandpaddles.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=kayak&action=di...ay&num=</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Am I too fat for this boat? 

Here's my reply from the forum ....the forum will be deleted since I
found a forum that combines both a forum format with Usenet entries on
it



I could not tell you anything concise about the Valley Canoe Avocet RM
other than I do not like that type of hatch covers. For that matter in
any kayak that has that type of hatch cover , IMHO is very hard to
take off and put on regardless of whether you are still on the kayak
or not…. (I'm referring mostly to the Day hatch)(Also a reason I went
for the Eclipse I can't stand those so called day hatches I like deck
lids) I have in many instances gone to the rear hatch to get something
out (In most cases homemade power bars) and I need it to be very easy
to take off and put on.

Now about the Avocet RM being for paddlers of 160 pounds only, I think
that is wrongful information…..that kayak (or canoe as it is called in
Great Britain that's why they are called Valley Canoes) is extremely
similar to the Necky's Chatham and that is rated for a max of 350
total pounds according to the salesman (He is very experienced paddler
imo) at a retail store that sells them near my house. So the way I see
it is this way. Total weight allowed is 350 – 255 (you) leaves you
with 95 pounds of cargo.

I think you are also a good candidate for the Perception Eclipse
17'...Which I have. You might want to try that too or the Carolina
16.5. About being 6'2" 255 pounds ...(Glad to see that you have lost
45 pounds since 08/08/04) That is my height and I weight 229 and I
have a lot of room in my kayak. I also look for adjustable knee
braces. Not all legs are the same length and some adjustability is
bound to me made in that area.

Also I would also recommend trying or looking into Necky's Elaho,
Elaho HV or the Chatham. (Does not come with Rudder) (I would have
gotten the Elaho HV but it did not come with a rudder only skeg at the
time I purchased mine and it also has the day hatch)

Hope that helps.
 >> Stay informed about: Am I too fat for this boat? 

Paul Tomblin wrote:

 > In a previous article, Drew Cutter <andrewc.TakeThisOut@wcoil.com> said:
 >
  >>Question is it too snug to exit if you find yourself in trouble when you
  >>flip ? The site i saw said it was for average size paddler. When it says
 >
 > I doubt it. I haven't done a exit in it, but I've done exits before where
 > you have to push down on the cockpit rim to get out.

I can't imagine that you could get trapped in an Avocet cockpit anyway.
It's quite roomy.
 >
  >>the water. I would opt for a boat that's for 180 lbs + person. The tilt
  >>(without thinking) part would worry me if you are an inexperience
 >
 > I'm new to kayaks, but I've been paddling canoes for 30 years. Boat
 > handling isn't an issue - this is the first one I've tried where I felt
 > really a part of the boat.

That says a lot. It sounds like the Avocet fits you the way a kayak should.

  >>paddler. Try the boat when a motor boat passes you by or on a windy day.

It's a reasonably stable boat and is designed to handle well in rough
water. It may take a while for you to get used to it, but the boat is
very competent.

 > Didn't have any problems with minor wake today, but yeah, I should take it
 > out on the lake. Everything I've read says it's a good boat for that.

Absolutely. It's an excellent boat for open and/or rough water.

  >>Hope this helps. This should narrow your choices down. Your local shop
  >>should have demo days.
 >
 > I've been working my way through their rental boats, trying to give every
 > boat a few hours at least. This one's my favourite so far.

Then it may well be the boat for you. If you want something that's a bit
more roomy, try the Skerry RMX. It handles similarly, but it's a bit
wider and more stable. Regardless, buy the boat that's most comfortable
and don't worry about rated capacities. Most boats will handle far more
weight than they're rated to and you'll get better performance from a
boat that fits like an extension of your body. The majority of paddlers
end up with boats that are too big, primarily because the majority of
boats sold here are too big for typical paddlers.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Am I too fat for this boat? 

Jeff Valero wrote:

 > Here's my reply from the forum ....the forum will be deleted since I
 > found a forum that combines both a forum format with Usenet entries on
 > it
 >
 >
 > I could not tell you anything concise about the Valley Canoe Avocet RM
 > other than I do not like that type of hatch covers. For that matter in
 > any kayak that has that type of hatch cover , IMHO is very hard to
 > take off and put on regardless of whether you are still on the kayak
 > or not…. (I'm referring mostly to the Day hatch)(Also a reason I went
 > for the Eclipse I can't stand those so called day hatches I like deck
 > lids) I have in many instances gone to the rear hatch to get something
 > out (In most cases homemade power bars) and I need it to be very easy
 > to take off and put on.

So you'd rather have leaky, complex hatches than simple, dry ones? Yes,
VCP hatch covers can be difficult to remove at times (especially when
they're cold, but they WORK and you don't have to deal with multiple
pieces and straps and other junk that can break or get lost.

You're also missing the point of a day hatch. While most can be used on
the water, they're real utility is that they keep all the gear you need
for day trips right behind the seat, which helps maintain the balance of
the boat. Without a day hatch, you have to take extra pains to make sure
that your gear doesn't shift around while you're paddling.

As for your "power bars", doesn't your PFD have pockets? Even if it
doesn't, surely you have room in the cockpit for a small day bag.

 > Now about the Avocet RM being for paddlers of 160 pounds only, I think
 > that is wrongful information…..that kayak (or canoe as it is called in
 > Great Britain that's why they are called Valley Canoes) is extremely
 > similar to the Necky's Chatham and that is rated for a max of 350
 > total pounds according to the salesman (He is very experienced paddler
 > imo) at a retail store that sells them near my house. So the way I see
 > it is this way. Total weight allowed is 350 – 255 (you) leaves you
 > with 95 pounds of cargo.

That's more realistic.

 > I think you are also a good candidate for the Perception Eclipse
 > 17'...Which I have. You might want to try that too or the Carolina
 > 16.5. About being 6'2" 255 pounds ...(Glad to see that you have lost
 > 45 pounds since 08/08/04) That is my height and I weight 229 and I
 > have a lot of room in my kayak. I also look for adjustable knee
 > braces. Not all legs are the same length and some adjustability is
 > bound to me made in that area.

The Eclipse may well fit him, but it's nowhere near the quality of the
Avocet. The plastic that Perception uses is second rate by comparison
and their boats tend to be rather flexible and flimsy feeling.

 > Also I would also recommend trying or looking into Necky's Elaho,
 > Elaho HV or the Chatham. (Does not come with Rudder) (I would have
 > gotten the Elaho HV but it did not come with a rudder only skeg at the
 > time I purchased mine and it also has the day hatch)

What makes you think he needs or wants a rudder?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Am I too fat for this boat? 

Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom.RemoveThis@att.net> wrote in message news:<lI_Vc.234844$OB3.134242@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
 > Jeff Valero wrote:
 >
  > > Here's my reply from the forum ....the forum will be deleted since I
  > > found a forum that combines both a forum format with Usenet entries on
  > > it
  > >
  > >
  > > I could not tell you anything concise about the Valley Canoe Avocet RM
  > > other than I do not like that type of hatch covers. For that matter in
  > > any kayak that has that type of hatch cover , IMHO is very hard to
  > > take off and put on regardless of whether you are still on the kayak
  > > or not…. (I'm referring mostly to the Day hatch)(Also a reason I went
  > > for the Eclipse I can't stand those so called day hatches I like deck
  > > lids) I have in many instances gone to the rear hatch to get something
  > > out (In most cases homemade power bars) and I need it to be very easy
  > > to take off and put on.
 >
 > So you'd rather have leaky, complex hatches than simple, dry ones? Yes,
 > VCP hatch covers can be difficult to remove at times (especially when
 > they're cold, but they WORK and you don't have to deal with multiple
 > pieces and straps and other junk that can break or get lost.

Mine has never leaked. I guess i got a good one...who kenw!!


 > You're also missing the point of a day hatch. While most can be used on
 > the water, they're real utility is that they keep all the gear you need
 > for day trips right behind the seat, which helps maintain the balance of
 > the boat. Without a day hatch, you have to take extra pains to make sure
 > that your gear doesn't shift around while you're paddling.

I don't see how it mantains a better balance by having an extra
compartment....But I take your word for it

 >
 > As for your "power bars", doesn't your PFD have pockets? Even if it
 > doesn't, surely you have room in the cockpit for a small day bag.

My PFD does not have pockets. but you gave me a good idea....I could
use a small dry bag and use it as support for my legs (numbed feet
syndrome)

 >
  > > Now about the Avocet RM being for paddlers of 160 pounds only, I think
  > > that is wrongful information…..that kayak (or canoe as it is called in
  > > Great Britain that's why they are called Valley Canoes) is extremely
  > > similar to the Necky's Chatham and that is rated for a max of 350
  > > total pounds according to the salesman (He is very experienced paddler
  > > imo) at a retail store that sells them near my house. So the way I see
  > > it is this way. Total weight allowed is 350 – 255 (you) leaves you
  > > with 95 pounds of cargo.
 >
 > That's more realistic.
 >
  > > I think you are also a good candidate for the Perception Eclipse
  > > 17'...Which I have. You might want to try that too or the Carolina
  > > 16.5. About being 6'2" 255 pounds ...(Glad to see that you have lost
  > > 45 pounds since 08/08/04) That is my height and I weight 229 and I
  > > have a lot of room in my kayak. I also look for adjustable knee
  > > braces. Not all legs are the same length and some adjustability is
  > > bound to me made in that area.
 >
 > The Eclipse may well fit him, but it's nowhere near the quality of the
 > Avocet. The plastic that Perception uses is second rate by comparison
 > and their boats tend to be rather flexible and flimsy feeling.

I take you word about this. do not know their quality of plastics. I
tell you about mine....I do not feel that it is flimsy or flexible at
all. about the quality...I have gone over some serious rocks while
ocean touring and I have only had minor scratches on the bottom where
I have seen other kayaks rip open...


  > > Also I would also recommend trying or looking into Necky's Elaho,
  > > Elaho HV or the Chatham. (Does not come with Rudder) (I would have
  > > gotten the Elaho HV but it did not come with a rudder only skeg at the
  > > time I purchased mine and it also has the day hatch)
 >
 > What makes you think he needs or wants a rudder?

No I didn't think he needed nor wanted one...I wanted one....That is
why I put in parentesis that the Necky Chatham comes without rudder.
I think for his type of application a skeg would do better. MHO<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Am I too fat for this boat? 

"Jeff Valero" <questisimo RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fc99de92.0408231227.2d3b2fe1@posting.google.com...
 > Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom RemoveThis @att.net> wrote in message
news:<lI_Vc.234844$OB3.134242@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
  > > Jeff Valero wrote:
  > >
   > > > Here's my reply from the forum ....the forum will be deleted since I
   > > > found a forum that combines both a forum format with Usenet entries on
   > > > it
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > I could not tell you anything concise about the Valley Canoe Avocet RM
   > > > other than I do not like that type of hatch covers. For that matter in
   > > > any kayak that has that type of hatch cover , IMHO is very hard to
   > > > take off and put on regardless of whether you are still on the kayak
   > > > or not…. (I'm referring mostly to the Day hatch)(Also a reason I went
   > > > for the Eclipse I can't stand those so called day hatches I like deck
   > > > lids) I have in many instances gone to the rear hatch to get something
   > > > out (In most cases homemade power bars) and I need it to be very easy
   > > > to take off and put on.
  > >
  > > So you'd rather have leaky, complex hatches than simple, dry ones? Yes,
  > > VCP hatch covers can be difficult to remove at times (especially when
  > > they're cold, but they WORK and you don't have to deal with multiple
  > > pieces and straps and other junk that can break or get lost.
 >
 > Mine has never leaked. I guess i got a good one...who kenw!!
 >
 >
  > > You're also missing the point of a day hatch. While most can be used on
  > > the water, they're real utility is that they keep all the gear you need
  > > for day trips right behind the seat, which helps maintain the balance of
  > > the boat. Without a day hatch, you have to take extra pains to make sure
  > > that your gear doesn't shift around while you're paddling.
 >
 > I don't see how it mantains a better balance by having an extra
 > compartment....But I take your word for it

I think the idea is that you won't tip over reaching for stuff that is far
away

Keenan
gokayaking.ca<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Am I too fat for this boat? 

Jeff Valero wrote:

 > Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom.RemoveThis@att.net> wrote in message news:<lI_Vc.234844$OB3.134242@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
 >
  >>Jeff Valero wrote:
  >>
  >>
   >>>Here's my reply from the forum ....the forum will be deleted since I
   >>>found a forum that combines both a forum format with Usenet entries on
   >>>it
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>I could not tell you anything concise about the Valley Canoe Avocet RM
   >>>other than I do not like that type of hatch covers. For that matter in
   >>>any kayak that has that type of hatch cover , IMHO is very hard to
   >>>take off and put on regardless of whether you are still on the kayak
   >>>or not…. (I'm referring mostly to the Day hatch)(Also a reason I went
   >>>for the Eclipse I can't stand those so called day hatches I like deck
   >>>lids) I have in many instances gone to the rear hatch to get something
   >>>out (In most cases homemade power bars) and I need it to be very easy
   >>>to take off and put on.
  >>
  >>So you'd rather have leaky, complex hatches than simple, dry ones? Yes,
  >>VCP hatch covers can be difficult to remove at times (especially when
  >>they're cold, but they WORK and you don't have to deal with multiple
  >>pieces and straps and other junk that can break or get lost.
 >
 >
 > Mine has never leaked. I guess i got a good one...who kenw!!

Give it time.

  >>You're also missing the point of a day hatch. While most can be used on
  >>the water, they're real utility is that they keep all the gear you need
  >>for day trips right behind the seat, which helps maintain the balance of
  >>the boat. Without a day hatch, you have to take extra pains to make sure
  >>that your gear doesn't shift around while you're paddling.
 >
 >
 > I don't see how it mantains a better balance by having an extra
 > compartment....But I take your word for it

It's quite simple. It keeps your gear close to the center of gravity of
the boat, rather than allowing it to slide back and forth. You could
accomplish the same thing by wedging your gear in place or using float
bags to take up the extra space and keep things from shifting, but a day
compartment makes it much easier.

  >>As for your "power bars", doesn't your PFD have pockets? Even if it
  >>doesn't, surely you have room in the cockpit for a small day bag.
 >
 > My PFD does not have pockets. but you gave me a good idea....I could
 > use a small dry bag and use it as support for my legs (numbed feet
 > syndrome)

Just make sure that it's attached to the seat and cannot move around.
Otherwise, it can become an entrapment hazard if it shifts down toward
your feet.

   >>>I think you are also a good candidate for the Perception Eclipse
   >>>17'...Which I have. You might want to try that too or the Carolina
   >>>16.5. About being 6'2" 255 pounds ...(Glad to see that you have lost
   >>>45 pounds since 08/08/04) That is my height and I weight 229 and I
   >>>have a lot of room in my kayak. I also look for adjustable knee
   >>>braces. Not all legs are the same length and some adjustability is
   >>>bound to me made in that area.
  >>
  >>The Eclipse may well fit him, but it's nowhere near the quality of the
  >>Avocet. The plastic that Perception uses is second rate by comparison
  >>and their boats tend to be rather flexible and flimsy feeling.
 >
 > I take you word about this. do not know their quality of plastics. I
 > tell you about mine....I do not feel that it is flimsy or flexible at
 > all. about the quality...I have gone over some serious rocks while
 > ocean touring and I have only had minor scratches on the bottom where
 > I have seen other kayaks rip open...

That's interesting, as I've never seen any plastic boat "rip open",
despite serious abuse in rocks. Perception is known for using the
cheapest materials in the industry and for making very thin, flexible
boats. That's why their longer boats have a steel tube riveted along the
keel to stiffen. Otherwise, they'd "oil can" horribly. A well made boat
doesn't need such "band aids".

VCP, Prijon and P&H are probably the three best plastic boats in terms
of material quality and hull stiffness. The Wilderness Systems Tempests
are also very good.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Am I too fat for this boat? 

"Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom.TakeThisOut@att.net> wrote in message
news:Ay_Wc.245520$OB3.66066@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
 > Jeff Valero wrote:
 >
  > > Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom.TakeThisOut@att.net> wrote in message
news:<lI_Vc.234844$OB3.134242@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
  > >
   > >>Jeff Valero wrote:
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>>Here's my reply from the forum ....the forum will be deleted since I
   > >>>found a forum that combines both a forum format with Usenet entries on
   > >>>it
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>I could not tell you anything concise about the Valley Canoe Avocet RM
   > >>>other than I do not like that type of hatch covers. For that matter in
   > >>>any kayak that has that type of hatch cover , IMHO is very hard to
   > >>>take off and put on regardless of whether you are still on the kayak
   > >>>or not…. (I'm referring mostly to the Day hatch)(Also a reason I went
   > >>>for the Eclipse I can't stand those so called day hatches I like deck
   > >>>lids) I have in many instances gone to the rear hatch to get something
   > >>>out (In most cases homemade power bars) and I need it to be very easy
   > >>>to take off and put on.
   > >>
   > >>So you'd rather have leaky, complex hatches than simple, dry ones? Yes,
   > >>VCP hatch covers can be difficult to remove at times (especially when
   > >>they're cold, but they WORK and you don't have to deal with multiple
   > >>pieces and straps and other junk that can break or get lost.
  > >
  > >
  > > Mine has never leaked. I guess i got a good one...who kenw!!
 >
 > Give it time.
 >
   > >>You're also missing the point of a day hatch. While most can be used on
   > >>the water, they're real utility is that they keep all the gear you need
   > >>for day trips right behind the seat, which helps maintain the balance of
   > >>the boat. Without a day hatch, you have to take extra pains to make sure
   > >>that your gear doesn't shift around while you're paddling.
  > >
  > >
  > > I don't see how it mantains a better balance by having an extra
  > > compartment....But I take your word for it
 >
 > It's quite simple. It keeps your gear close to the center of gravity of
 > the boat, rather than allowing it to slide back and forth. You could
 > accomplish the same thing by wedging your gear in place or using float
 > bags to take up the extra space and keep things from shifting, but a day
 > compartment makes it much easier.
 >
   > >>As for your "power bars", doesn't your PFD have pockets? Even if it
   > >>doesn't, surely you have room in the cockpit for a small day bag.
  > >
  > > My PFD does not have pockets. but you gave me a good idea....I could
  > > use a small dry bag and use it as support for my legs (numbed feet
  > > syndrome)
 >
 > Just make sure that it's attached to the seat and cannot move around.
 > Otherwise, it can become an entrapment hazard if it shifts down toward
 > your feet.
 >
   > >>>I think you are also a good candidate for the Perception Eclipse
   > >>>17'...Which I have. You might want to try that too or the Carolina
   > >>>16.5. About being 6'2" 255 pounds ...(Glad to see that you have lost
   > >>>45 pounds since 08/08/04) That is my height and I weight 229 and I
   > >>>have a lot of room in my kayak. I also look for adjustable knee
   > >>>braces. Not all legs are the same length and some adjustability is
   > >>>bound to me made in that area.
   > >>
   > >>The Eclipse may well fit him, but it's nowhere near the quality of the
   > >>Avocet. The plastic that Perception uses is second rate by comparison
   > >>and their boats tend to be rather flexible and flimsy feeling.
  > >
  > > I take you word about this. do not know their quality of plastics. I
  > > tell you about mine....I do not feel that it is flimsy or flexible at
  > > all. about the quality...I have gone over some serious rocks while
  > > ocean touring and I have only had minor scratches on the bottom where
  > > I have seen other kayaks rip open...
 >
 > That's interesting, as I've never seen any plastic boat "rip open",
 > despite serious abuse in rocks. Perception is known for using the
 > cheapest materials in the industry and for making very thin, flexible
 > boats.

 > That's why their longer boats have a steel tube riveted along the
 > keel to stiffen. Otherwise, they'd "oil can" horribly. A well made boat
 > doesn't need such "band aids".

They no longer do this. I don't know about the Eclipse but they have
addressed the stiffness issue (not to satisfaction, in my opinion) by
molding what they call "tracking channels" into the hull. When they did put
the steel tube over the keel line in the Eclipse they did not rivet them in.
They were captured by the seat and foam blocks attached to the foam
bulkheads fore and aft. So overall the boat would be a bit stiffer between
the bulkheads but it still oil canned like crazy. Also I've heard from an
Eclipse owner and from a local kayak shop owner that the patented easy open
hatches are QUITE easy to open. All you need do is to drag some gear over
them, do a paddle float rescue or get washed over by some good dumping surf
and the outer covers pop right off.


 >
 > VCP, Prijon and P&H are probably the three best plastic boats in terms
 > of material quality and hull stiffness. The Wilderness Systems Tempests
 > are also very good.
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Am I too fat for this boat?