comment to rescue please

steen bondo wrote:

> http://kayakparadise.dk/gfx/image006.jpg
>
> Could I have a few comments to this rescue, please. I'll keep my own
> opinion to myself just now. It's supposed to be a roughwater-rescue.

I've done quite a few practises but have never had this one suggested.
The only extent the swimmer climbs onto the rescuers kayak as I've tried
it is as an aide in getting back into their own boat directly. Seems
rather less contrived.

Though we've emptied the boats I take Keith's point about weight. We
don't load the boats before going swimming in the local harbour, so next
time I'll have to see how well it works to just get back in and get
pumping with the rescuer rafter alongside for stability.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch.DeleteThis@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 >> Stay informed about: comment to rescue please 

Peter Clinch wrote:

>> http://kayakparadise.dk/gfx/image006.jpg
> Seems rather less contrived.

Agree.

My suggestion would be to let the swimmer hang on to his stern (if
needed he can push down). I'd only pull the 'wet' boat about 1/3 up (to
a stable position, leaving 2/3 of the weight on the water.), then I
would let the swimmer climb (ladder) in from his stern. Of course I let
the boat slip gently back into the water - no reason to take it all the
way over.

As you both pointed out, I too find the stress on the boats tremendous!

hilsen / regards
--
steen - kajakparadis.dk <X> filshuse-teltplads.dk
---
 >> Stay informed about: comment to rescue please 

The only justification I could see for at least part of this is if the
swimmer is underdressed for the water temperature and needs to get out.
Why they drag a hull--full of water! It doesn't get emptied until step
3-- over the rescuer's lap and why the rescuee couldn't get back in
with the boat in the water, I have no idea.

At first i thought maybe having the swimmer on your deck could help you
pull the boat up if it were loaded, but i don't think even the two of
them could pick up a loaded boat like that. And if weight is the issue,
why not dump it first?

Also looks like a nice way to slice a skirt.

Steve

steen bondo wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> http://kayakparadise.dk/gfx/image006.jpg
>
> Could I have a few comments to this rescue, please. I'll keep my own
> opinion to myself just now. It's supposed to be a roughwater-rescue.
 >> Stay informed about: comment to rescue please 

Never seen the ladder idea. I'll have to try that. Thanks.

Steve

steen bondo wrote:

> My suggestion would be to let the swimmer hang on to his stern (if
> needed he can push down). I'd only pull the 'wet' boat about 1/3 up (to
> a stable position, leaving 2/3 of the weight on the water.), then I
> would let the swimmer climb (ladder) in from his stern. Of course I let
> the boat slip gently back into the water - no reason to take it all the
> way over.
 >> Stay informed about: comment to rescue please 

cramersec wrote:

>[cut]
> Also looks like a nice way to slice a skirt.

Couldn't have said it better.

The rescue is part of a new syllabus here in DK - obviously I don't like
it at all.

hilsen / regards
--
steen - kajakparadis.dk <X> filshuse-teltplads.dk
---
 >> Stay informed about: comment to rescue please 

cramersec wrote:
> Never seen the ladder idea. I'll have to try that. Thanks.

A fellow participant at Plas Menai showed it to me.

hilsen / regards
--
steen - kajakparadis.dk <X> filshuse-teltplads.dk
---
 >> Stay informed about: comment to rescue please 

In message <44a181a5$0$84016$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk>
steen bondo <spamfrit.TakeThisOut@paradis.dk> wrote:

> cramersec wrote:
>
> >[cut]
>> Also looks like a nice way to slice a skirt.
>
> Couldn't have said it better.
>
> The rescue is part of a new syllabus here in DK - obviously I don't like
> it at all.

It's quite an effective rescue done between playboats. It has the
advantage that the swimmer uses his/her legs instead of arms to do
most of the work, so an overweight/understrong swimmer can be reunited
with their boat.

In a playboat, you usually have a flat front deck, which gives a nice
step.

When the swimmer is an adult, it gets interesting, because the
rescuer's boat goes nearly vertical, but the swimmer's boat is then
supported by the water, and the rescue can still be made to work. Key
point is asking the swimmer to use their arms to take some of the
weight off their feet/your boat.

And, yes, you do need a reinforced spraydeck.

>
> hilsen / regards


--
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
alan.adams.TakeThisOut@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.nckc.org.uk/
 >> Stay informed about: comment to rescue please 

I really want to see that done, as it's hard to visualize. The front
deck of, just to pick one, the Jackson AllStar is about 18" long (~.5
m.). The boat is 24" wide. Assuming an AllStar rescuing another AllStar
on the deck and skirt, that leaves, what, 6" of the point of the bow to
sit on? I'm afraid my bum is too big.

Also I wasn't clear on that you meant by "the swimmer uses his/her legs
instead of arms to do most of the work". Which work is that? Not the
picking up of several gallons of water plus boat onto the deck, that's
arm work for both of them.

Next time I'm in the pool, I'll sit on the front of a playboat and see
what happens. Should be fun.

Wait, maybe I can see it. Swimmer climbs on deck, making rescue boat
vertical. Both pull swimmer's boat across between them, making a
vertical cross (+). Swimmer falls off backwards, rescuer's boat drops
to flat, leaving swimmer's boat on his deck, upside down and drained.
Might require swimmer to grasp a bow loop with his toes, but it could
work.

Steve

Alan Adams wrote:
> It's quite an effective rescue done between playboats. It has the
> advantage that the swimmer uses his/her legs instead of arms to do
> most of the work, so an overweight/understrong swimmer can be reunited
> with their boat.
>
> In a playboat, you usually have a flat front deck, which gives a nice
> step.
>
> When the swimmer is an adult, it gets interesting, because the
> rescuer's boat goes nearly vertical, but the swimmer's boat is then
> supported by the water, and the rescue can still be made to work. Key
> point is asking the swimmer to use their arms to take some of the
> weight off their feet/your boat.
>
> And, yes, you do need a reinforced spraydeck.
 >> Stay informed about: comment to rescue please 

In message <1151519588.308886.43100.RemoveThis@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>
"cramersec" <cramersec.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> I really want to see that done, as it's hard to visualize. The front
> deck of, just to pick one, the Jackson AllStar is about 18" long (~.5
> m.). The boat is 24" wide. Assuming an AllStar rescuing another AllStar
> on the deck and skirt, that leaves, what, 6" of the point of the bow to
> sit on? I'm afraid my bum is too big.

The swimmer's boat is across the cockpit, not the front deck. This
means there is quite a lot of deck sticking out. The rescruer leans
right back as the swimmer starts to climb onto the rescuer's front
deck, acting as a counterweight.
>
> Also I wasn't clear on that you meant by "the swimmer uses his/her legs
> instead of arms to do most of the work". Which work is that? Not the
> picking up of several gallons of water plus boat onto the deck, that's
> arm work for both of them.

In a conventional rescue the swimnmer pulls themself out of the water
onto their boat using almost entirely arm muscles. Unless the swimmer
happens to be someone who does a lot of kayaking, they don't have the
upper body strength to do that. If they are a kayaker, the need for
rescue is remote.

> Next time I'm in the pool, I'll sit on the front of a playboat and see
> what happens. Should be fun.

Remember to get the occupier of the boat to lean back. Also remember
the bouyancy provided by the second boat. It is critical to the
success of this form of rescue.

As I might not have said explicitly, the rescuer has to weigh at least
as much as the swimmer, unless the swimmer is very light. It does work
between two children.

> Wait, maybe I can see it. Swimmer climbs on deck, making rescue boat
> vertical. Both pull swimmer's boat across between them, making a
> vertical cross (+). Swimmer falls off backwards, rescuer's boat drops
> to flat, leaving swimmer's boat on his deck, upside down and drained.
> Might require swimmer to grasp a bow loop with his toes, but it could
> work.
>
> Steve
>
> Alan Adams wrote:
>> It's quite an effective rescue done between playboats. It has the
>> advantage that the swimmer uses his/her legs instead of arms to do
>> most of the work, so an overweight/understrong swimmer can be reunited
>> with their boat.
>>
>> In a playboat, you usually have a flat front deck, which gives a nice
>> step.
>>
>> When the swimmer is an adult, it gets interesting, because the
>> rescuer's boat goes nearly vertical, but the swimmer's boat is then
>> supported by the water, and the rescue can still be made to work. Key
>> point is asking the swimmer to use their arms to take some of the
>> weight off their feet/your boat.
>>
>> And, yes, you do need a reinforced spraydeck.
>


--
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
alan.adams.RemoveThis@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.nckc.org.uk/
 >> Stay informed about: comment to rescue please 

Alan Adams wrote:

> advantage that the swimmer uses his/her legs instead of arms to do
> most of the work, so an overweight/understrong swimmer can be reunited
> with their boat.

It takes quite a lot of arm-strength to get up on the bow in the first
place that seakayaks doesn't drop their nose like a playboat, under
load. Not to mention the round shape is rather hard to stay on.

hilsen / regards
--
steen - kajakparadis.dk <X> filshuse-teltplads.dk
---
 >> Stay informed about: comment to rescue please 

In message <44a2cf58$0$84015$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk>
steen bondo <spamfrit RemoveThis @paradis.dk> wrote:

> Alan Adams wrote:
>
>> advantage that the swimmer uses his/her legs instead of arms to do
>> most of the work, so an overweight/understrong swimmer can be reunited
>> with their boat.
>
> It takes quite a lot of arm-strength to get up on the bow in the first
> place that seakayaks doesn't drop their nose like a playboat, under
> load. Not to mention the round shape is rather hard to stay on.

It doesn't work too well in old-style general purpose boats for the
same reason - too much front buoyancy, and a round surface.

>
> hilsen / regards


--
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
alan.adams RemoveThis @orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.nckc.org.uk/
 >> Stay informed about: comment to rescue please 

Alan Adams wrote:
> "cramersec" <cramersec RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I really want to see that done, as it's hard to visualize. The front
> > deck of, just to pick one, the Jackson AllStar is about 18" long (~.5
> > m.). The boat is 24" wide. Assuming an AllStar rescuing another AllStar
> > on the deck and skirt, that leaves, what, 6" of the point of the bow to
> > sit on? I'm afraid my bum is too big.
>
> The swimmer's boat is across the cockpit, not the front deck. This
> means there is quite a lot of deck sticking out. The rescruer leans
> right back as the swimmer starts to climb onto the rescuer's front
> deck, acting as a counterweight.

In a 6' playboat, there's no more than 36" from the paddler's navel to
the bow, probably less. Put a 24" boat (my Zip is 27" wide, btw) on
your lap and you've got at the most a foot of bow remaining. Perhaps
that's enough, but I wouldn't consider it a lot.

> > Also I wasn't clear on that you meant by "the swimmer uses his/her legs
> > instead of arms to do most of the work". Which work is that? Not the
> > picking up of several gallons of water plus boat onto the deck, that's
> > arm work for both of them.
>
> In a conventional rescue the swimnmer pulls themself out of the water
> onto their boat using almost entirely arm muscles. Unless the swimmer
> happens to be someone who does a lot of kayaking, they don't have the
> upper body strength to do that. If they are a kayaker, the need for
> rescue is remote.

Not if they've been trained in rescues and know how to swim across the
deck instead of pulling up as if they were getting out of a pool.

> > Next time I'm in the pool, I'll sit on the front of a playboat and see
> > what happens. Should be fun.
>
> Remember to get the occupier of the boat to lean back. Also remember
> the bouyancy provided by the second boat. It is critical to the
> success of this form of rescue.

Gotcha.

> As I might not have said explicitly, the rescuer has to weigh at least
> as much as the swimmer, unless the swimmer is very light. It does work
> between two children.

So the moral is, always paddle with at least one person bigger than you
are. Sound advice. I used to always try to paddle with at least one
person who was a stronger boater than me. Then once I realized that
everybody else on the trip was doing the same thing. Scary.

> > Wait, maybe I can see it. Swimmer climbs on deck, making rescue boat
> > vertical. Both pull swimmer's boat across between them, making a
> > vertical cross (+). Swimmer falls off backwards, rescuer's boat drops
> > to flat, leaving swimmer's boat on his deck, upside down and drained.
> > Might require swimmer to grasp a bow loop with his toes, but it could
> > work.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > Alan Adams wrote:
> >> It's quite an effective rescue done between playboats. It has the
> >> advantage that the swimmer uses his/her legs instead of arms to do
> >> most of the work, so an overweight/understrong swimmer can be reunited
> >> with their boat.
> >>
> >> In a playboat, you usually have a flat front deck, which gives a nice
> >> step.
> >>
> >> When the swimmer is an adult, it gets interesting, because the
> >> rescuer's boat goes nearly vertical, but the swimmer's boat is then
> >> supported by the water, and the rescue can still be made to work. Key
> >> point is asking the swimmer to use their arms to take some of the
> >> weight off their feet/your boat.
> >>
> >> And, yes, you do need a reinforced spraydeck.
> >
>
>
> --
> Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
> alan.adams RemoveThis @orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk
> http://www.nckc.org.uk/
 >> Stay informed about: comment to rescue please 

Alan Adams wrote:

> In a conventional rescue the swimnmer pulls themself out of the water
> onto their boat using almost entirely arm muscles.

Tip: Teach the swimmer to, while floating in the water - facing stern,
put his/hers upper-leg into the cockpit - then the swimmer can
(normally) easily get onto his boat, using a combination of leg and arm
muscles.

hilsen / regards
--
steen - kajakparadis.dk <X> filshuse-teltplads.dk
---
 >> Stay informed about: comment to rescue please