Self bailing or not

RMR wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 06:33:34 -0400, hk <payer33859.RemoveThis@mypacks.net> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>>
>> Herring knows virtually nothing about boats, so when he claims "Scotty
>> usually knows what he's talking about" in re: boats, the comment is even
>> funnier. "Scotty" seems to know how to build dinghies and rowboats, but
>> that doesn't mean he knows how to build ocean-capable wood boats. It's
>> not just a matter of stretching out the dimensions and making that
>> dinghy or rowboat larger
>
> These kinds of personal attacks should be filtered here. New boaters
> and some who know what they are talking about without search engines
> will not be willing to post real info if this continues...


It is not a "personal attack" to state that because you build dinghies
and rowboats, you do not necessarily know how to build ocean-capable
wood boats, nor is it a personal attack to state that building
ocean-capable wood boats requires more than stretching out the
dimensions of dinghies or rowboats.

I had years and years of experience with small rowboats and dinghies
rowing and motoring around the coves in the Milford, CT, area, in Long
Island Sound. These wood boats were similar in size and design to what
you used to build. I certainly learned the capabilities and shortcomings
of these boats, and since my dad had a boat store, I could easily see
the differences in design, engineering and construction between the
lightweight boats I was using, and the ones that were capable of
crossing the Sound in relative safety and comfort. And you know what?
Many of the boats I got to use that were OK for Long Island Sound I
wouldn't have taken out into the Atlantic.

Finally, note that I am NOT saying you cannot build ocean-capable wood
boats. I don't know whether you can or you cannot, since you have not,
to my knowledge, posted photos of any larger boats you have built that
are being used out on the Atlantic.
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

<PLONK> hopefully I have donet this correctly;)
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:11:06 -0700 (PDT), ohara5.0.DeleteThis@mindspring.com
wrote:

>Look guys, this is all in fun. Sure, I'd like to do this but I do
>value my life. Maybe I will if I can convince myself that I need some
>more adventure but maybe not too. Wouldnt any of you even be tempted
>to try this?

If it were me I'd take the sailboat. It is much more seaworthy and
has much better cruising accomodations. The Tolman, although fine for
its intended purpose, is not the right boat for crossing the Gulf
Stream and extended cruising.
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

Wayne.B wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:11:06 -0700 (PDT), ohara5.0.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com
> wrote:
>
>> Look guys, this is all in fun. Sure, I'd like to do this but I do
>> value my life. Maybe I will if I can convince myself that I need some
>> more adventure but maybe not too. Wouldnt any of you even be tempted
>> to try this?
>
> If it were me I'd take the sailboat. It is much more seaworthy and
> has much better cruising accomodations. The Tolman, although fine for
> its intended purpose, is not the right boat for crossing the Gulf
> Stream and extended cruising.
>

Wayne,
It is always nice to see a constructive comment, that is not demeaning
to someone asking a serious question.
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 05:04:45 -0700 (PDT), JamesGangNC.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:

>> Look guys, this is all in fun.  Sure, I'd like to do this but I do
>> value my life.  Maybe I will if I can convince myself that I need some
>> more adventure but maybe not too.  Wouldnt any of you even be tempted
>> to try this?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>In a group, with a good waterproof portable 2way. Sure.

A little subject change: JG, do you know of any nice campgrounds in the
Falls Lake/Wake Forest area?
--
** Good Day! **

John H
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 13:17:13 -0700 (PDT), LoogyPicker.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:

>On Aug 18, 3:17 pm, hk <payer33....TakeThisOut@mypacks.net> wrote:
>> ohara....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com wrote:
>> > On Aug 18, 2:50 pm, hk <payer33....TakeThisOut@mypacks.net> wrote:
>> >> justwaitafrekinmin....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>> On Aug 18, 1:46 pm, hk <payer33....TakeThisOut@mypacks.net> wrote:
>> >>>> The proper advice is to advise O'Hara not make the trip in his Tolman.
>> >>>> It's just too risky, especially for a guy that whatever his sailboating
>> >>>> experience seems really limited on open ocean powerboat experience.
>> >>> Because I don't talk out of my ass, I know about wood/composite
>> >>> construction and flotation, that's what I will talk about.  Folks just
>> >>> need to know that your info is often scewed by, who knows what? Often
>> >>> times either googled, or worse, wiki, then taken out of context or
>> >>> edited, or just plain bullshit all together, just to fight. Your
>> >>> constant mocking and trolling keeps many good folks from posting here.
>> >> Once again, I point out you have little or no experience building
>> >> ocean-capable boats or operating same. No experience means no
>> >> experience. You build dinghies and rowboats, none of which I would take
>> >> into the ocean, and most of which I would not take into Long Island Sound.
>>
>> >> Further, the other day you vehemently denied that Tolman skiffs
>> >> incorporated stitch and glue construction, an opinion shot to hell by
>> >> Renn Tolman himself, the designer of these boats.
>>
>> >> Finally, you have a cavalier attitude towards the value of life, as
>> >> evidenced by your allowing, even encouraging, your minor child's
>> >> participation in motorcycle racing.
>>
>> >> What O'Hara does is his decision. He has been asking for advice that
>> >> relates to his personal safety in undertaking a 50-mile ocean voyage in
>> >> a very light, small boat. Reasonable posters with ocean experience have
>> >> advised against him making the trip in that boat.
>>
>> >> --
>> >> I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do
>> >> something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do
>> >> the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I
>> >> should do, by the grace of God, I will do.
>>
>> >> — Edward Everett Hale (1822-1909)
>>
>> > Look guys, this is all in fun.  Sure, I'd like to do this but I do
>> > value my life.  Maybe I will if I can convince myself that I need some
>> > more adventure but maybe not too.  Wouldnt any of you even be tempted
>> > to try this?
>>
>> Not in a boat like yours...or mine. Too small. Not in my former Parker,
>> either, even though the boat was capable. It only had one engine. Now,
>> if I had an aux engine on that boat, I would have considered the trip.
>
>I'd rather make the voyage in a canoe than an imaginary lobster
>boat.....

My family has a square stern Grumman canoe with a sailing rig. [that
hasn't been used since the fifties] Also a three HP evinrude that is
downright scary at WOT. It could easily handle the trip sail, or
power. It isn't that far. If you don't have a flotilla, stay close to
a cruise ship. They go about twenty, and there are several a day. In
event of a squall, huddle close in the lee of the ship. If the worse
happens, at least someone would see you go. They would at least fish
you out of the water. Some of them have a dozen bars, and you _would_
be ready for a drink. To digress, all the Holland America cruise ships
have a bar directly above the wheelhouse. Good view, to say the least.

Casady
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

"Richard Casady" <richardcasady.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:48d7e1a1.248428484@news.east.earthlink.net...
> On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 13:17:13 -0700 (PDT), LoogyPicker.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>On Aug 18, 3:17 pm, hk <payer33....DeleteThis@mypacks.net> wrote:
>>> ohara....DeleteThis@mindspring.com wrote:
>>> > On Aug 18, 2:50 pm, hk <payer33....DeleteThis@mypacks.net> wrote:
>>> >> justwaitafrekinmin....DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
>>> >>> On Aug 18, 1:46 pm, hk <payer33....DeleteThis@mypacks.net> wrote:
>>> >>>> The proper advice is to advise O'Hara not make the trip in his
>>> >>>> Tolman.
>>> >>>> It's just too risky, especially for a guy that whatever his
>>> >>>> sailboating
>>> >>>> experience seems really limited on open ocean powerboat experience.
>>> >>> Because I don't talk out of my ass, I know about wood/composite
>>> >>> construction and flotation, that's what I will talk about. Folks
>>> >>> just
>>> >>> need to know that your info is often scewed by, who knows what?
>>> >>> Often
>>> >>> times either googled, or worse, wiki, then taken out of context or
>>> >>> edited, or just plain bullshit all together, just to fight. Your
>>> >>> constant mocking and trolling keeps many good folks from posting
>>> >>> here.
>>> >> Once again, I point out you have little or no experience building
>>> >> ocean-capable boats or operating same. No experience means no
>>> >> experience. You build dinghies and rowboats, none of which I would
>>> >> take
>>> >> into the ocean, and most of which I would not take into Long Island
>>> >> Sound.
>>>
>>> >> Further, the other day you vehemently denied that Tolman skiffs
>>> >> incorporated stitch and glue construction, an opinion shot to hell by
>>> >> Renn Tolman himself, the designer of these boats.
>>>
>>> >> Finally, you have a cavalier attitude towards the value of life, as
>>> >> evidenced by your allowing, even encouraging, your minor child's
>>> >> participation in motorcycle racing.
>>>
>>> >> What O'Hara does is his decision. He has been asking for advice that
>>> >> relates to his personal safety in undertaking a 50-mile ocean voyage
>>> >> in
>>> >> a very light, small boat. Reasonable posters with ocean experience
>>> >> have
>>> >> advised against him making the trip in that boat.
>>>
>>> >> --
>>> >> I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do
>>> >> something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to
>>> >> do
>>> >> the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I
>>> >> should do, by the grace of God, I will do.
>>>
>>> >> - Edward Everett Hale (1822-1909)
>>>
>>> > Look guys, this is all in fun. Sure, I'd like to do this but I do
>>> > value my life. Maybe I will if I can convince myself that I need some
>>> > more adventure but maybe not too. Wouldnt any of you even be tempted
>>> > to try this?
>>>
>>> Not in a boat like yours...or mine. Too small. Not in my former Parker,
>>> either, even though the boat was capable. It only had one engine. Now,
>>> if I had an aux engine on that boat, I would have considered the trip.
>>
>>I'd rather make the voyage in a canoe than an imaginary lobster
>>boat.....
>
> My family has a square stern Grumman canoe with a sailing rig. [that
> hasn't been used since the fifties] Also a three HP evinrude that is
> downright scary at WOT. It could easily handle the trip sail, or
> power. It isn't that far. If you don't have a flotilla, stay close to
> a cruise ship. They go about twenty, and there are several a day. In
> event of a squall, huddle close in the lee of the ship. If the worse
> happens, at least someone would see you go. They would at least fish
> you out of the water. Some of them have a dozen bars, and you _would_
> be ready for a drink. To digress, all the Holland America cruise ships
> have a bar directly above the wheelhouse. Good view, to say the least.
>
> Casady

And have a good handheld VHF and a GPS to report your position.
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

Richard Casady wrote:

> My family has a square stern Grumman canoe with a sailing rig. [that
> hasn't been used since the fifties] Also a three HP evinrude that is
> downright scary at WOT. It could easily handle the trip sail, or
> power. It isn't that far...

> Casady


You think a canoe with a 3 hp outboard is sufficient for a trip from
Florida to Bimini, eh?

I think taking or even advising taking that sort of trip in a canoe is
foolish. Aside from all the other stuff that could happen, one sudden
wave breaking broadside and you are shark food.

Gotta love rec.boats...
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 22, 2:11 pm, "Eisboch" <r... DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote:
> <justwaitafrekinmin... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:2f32e2b8-443a-432e-8479-76a649c389d3@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
> At the expence of the rest who really can't participate in those
> threads without having to go on the defensive and correct the twisted
> bullshit... For someone here to suggest "all you have to do is be nice
> to harry" is either niave or malicious. Simply having an opposing
> opinion than wafa means you get attacked, especially if you prove his
> points to be lies, out of context, or just plain made up.. There are a
> very few here who can participate in any of those conversations, so
> little but one side and the other sides' lies get put up for
> consideration.. not much of a debate;) But if you are debating with
> only harry, at least you can pat yourself on the back for pobably
> being right...
>
> Yes, this is a direct knock at Dick and my friend Tom... I won't hide
> that here, it would be useless.       Hey, if Tom, Dick, and Harry (I
> have been waiting for the chance...) can have disagreements, hopefully
> Tom and Dick will appreciante my point of view here...  Or at least
> appreciate that I am being honest and don't kiss anyones......
> later, time to go to work...
>
> -------------------------------------
>
> You've made your point.   Now, let me make one.
>
> Newsgroups always been a place of debate, a forum to express opposing
> viewpoints and for spirited conversation, within a general category of
> common interest.  It dates back to the very early days of Usenet and, in
> fact, predates it.  Anyone who thinks rec.boats should *only* be about boats
> is woefully unaware of the background of unmoderated newsgroups.
>
> But, discussion and debate can be done in a civil manner without resorting
> to name calling and vulgarity.  That is nothing but childishness.
>
> Believe me,  I am not in the habit of kissing anyone's ass, nor do I expect
> anyone to kiss mine.  However, I can engage is a lively debate without
> having to resort to personal name calling. ....  most of the time ..  I
> admit, there is at least one person who posts here that I find so personally
> disagreeable that I find it very difficult to stick to my own rules.  
>
> I debate with Harry for three reasons.  One.  Although I disagree with him
> regularly, he does make compelling points once in a while that cause me to
> think.   That never hurt anyone.   Two.   I am well aware of your (and
> several other people's) objections to me "engaging" with Harry.  I do so
> however to demonstrate that halfway civil conversation may be had, even if
> the parties are in total disagreement.  Three.  I've had newsgroup
> discussions and debates with Harry for about 13 years now.  Eventually, I
> want to succeed in my goal of converting him into a Republican.
>
> If you notice, I also converse with you, and other members that often resort
> to name calling and frustrated vulgarity.
> If you also notice, I don't return the same.
>
> So, bottom line is, I am sorry you and others can't have civil discussion
> with those you can't agree with.   To me it sounds like the little kid who,
> when he can't compete, takes his ball and goes home.  There are several
> people who participate in this newsgroup who share different viewpoints, but
> can express them thoughtfully without personally attacking each other.
>
> If everyone made an honest effort to drop the personal insults, conversation
> could be had by all.   The problem and question is, who is big enough to
> make the first effort?
>
> Eisboch

Well said.. I have one last question for you. Do you, or do you not
believe there are several here who reguardless of the manner presented
could never have a civil conversation with Harry without being
insulted, taken out of text, or just plain misrepresented? If your
answer is "no" then I suggest you note the thread about the wooden
boats. I tried to participate without any insults or misrepsentations,
and was quickly attacked, my boats, my skills, my knowledge, my
personal hygene even...:0
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 22, 3:05 pm, hk <payer33... RemoveThis @mypacks.net> wrote:
> justwaitafrekinmin... RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
> > On Aug 22, 2:11 pm, "Eisboch" <r... RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote:
> >> <justwaitafrekinmin... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:2f32e2b8-443a-432e-8479-76a649c389d3@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com....
>
> >> At the expence of the rest who really can't participate in those
> >> threads without having to go on the defensive and correct the twisted
> >> bullshit... For someone here to suggest "all you have to do is be nice
> >> to harry" is either niave or malicious. Simply having an opposing
> >> opinion than wafa means you get attacked, especially if you prove his
> >> points to be lies, out of context, or just plain made up.. There are a
> >> very few here who can participate in any of those conversations, so
> >> little but one side and the other sides' lies get put up for
> >> consideration.. not much of a debate;) But if you are debating with
> >> only harry, at least you can pat yourself on the back for pobably
> >> being right...
>
> >> Yes, this is a direct knock at Dick and my friend Tom... I won't hide
> >> that here, it would be useless.       Hey, if Tom, Dick, and Harry (I
> >> have been waiting for the chance...) can have disagreements, hopefully
> >> Tom and Dick will appreciante my point of view here...  Or at least
> >> appreciate that I am being honest and don't kiss anyones......
> >> later, time to go to work...
>
> >> -------------------------------------
>
> >> You've made your point.   Now, let me make one.
>
> >> Newsgroups always been a place of debate, a forum to express opposing
> >> viewpoints and for spirited conversation, within a general category of
> >> common interest.  It dates back to the very early days of Usenet and, in
> >> fact, predates it.  Anyone who thinks rec.boats should *only* be about boats
> >> is woefully unaware of the background of unmoderated newsgroups.
>
> >> But, discussion and debate can be done in a civil manner without resorting
> >> to name calling and vulgarity.  That is nothing but childishness.
>
> >> Believe me,  I am not in the habit of kissing anyone's ass, nor do I expect
> >> anyone to kiss mine.  However, I can engage is a lively debate without
> >> having to resort to personal name calling. ....  most of the time ..  I
> >> admit, there is at least one person who posts here that I find so personally
> >> disagreeable that I find it very difficult to stick to my own rules.  
>
> >> I debate with Harry for three reasons.  One.  Although I disagree with him
> >> regularly, he does make compelling points once in a while that cause me to
> >> think.   That never hurt anyone.   Two.   I am well aware of your (and
> >> several other people's) objections to me "engaging" with Harry.  I do so
> >> however to demonstrate that halfway civil conversation may be had, even if
> >> the parties are in total disagreement.  Three.  I've had newsgroup
> >> discussions and debates with Harry for about 13 years now.  Eventually, I
> >> want to succeed in my goal of converting him into a Republican.
>
> >> If you notice, I also converse with you, and other members that often resort
> >> to name calling and frustrated vulgarity.
> >> If you also notice, I don't return the same.
>
> >> So, bottom line is, I am sorry you and others can't have civil discussion
> >> with those you can't agree with.   To me it sounds like the little kid who,
> >> when he can't compete, takes his ball and goes home.  There are several
> >> people who participate in this newsgroup who share different viewpoints, but
> >> can express them thoughtfully without personally attacking each other.
>
> >> If everyone made an honest effort to drop the personal insults, conversation
> >> could be had by all.   The problem and question is, who is big enough to
> >> make the first effort?
>
> >> Eisboch
>
> > Well said.. I have one last question for you. Do you, or do you not
> > believe there are several here who reguardless of the manner presented
> > could never have a civil conversation with Harry without being
> > insulted, taken out of text, or just plain misrepresented?   If your
> > answer is "no" then I suggest you note the thread about the wooden
> > boats. I tried to participate without any insults or misrepsentations,
> > and was quickly attacked, my boats, my skills, my knowledge, my
> > personal hygene even...:0
>
> Stop whining. You're simply getting back from me what you toss in my
> direction. You reap what you sow.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Revisionist history...
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 22, 3:29 pm, hk <payer33....RemoveThis@mypacks.net> wrote:
> justwaitafrekinmin....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Aug 22, 3:05 pm, hk <payer33....RemoveThis@mypacks.net> wrote:
> >> justwaitafrekinmin....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Aug 22, 2:11 pm, "Eisboch" <r....RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >>>> <justwaitafrekinmin....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>>news:2f32e2b8-443a-432e-8479-76a649c389d3@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com....
> >>>> At the expence of the rest who really can't participate in those
> >>>> threads without having to go on the defensive and correct the twisted
> >>>> bullshit... For someone here to suggest "all you have to do is be nice
> >>>> to harry" is either niave or malicious. Simply having an opposing
> >>>> opinion than wafa means you get attacked, especially if you prove his
> >>>> points to be lies, out of context, or just plain made up.. There are a
> >>>> very few here who can participate in any of those conversations, so
> >>>> little but one side and the other sides' lies get put up for
> >>>> consideration.. not much of a debate;) But if you are debating with
> >>>> only harry, at least you can pat yourself on the back for pobably
> >>>> being right...
> >>>> Yes, this is a direct knock at Dick and my friend Tom... I won't hide
> >>>> that here, it would be useless.       Hey, if Tom, Dick, and Harry (I
> >>>> have been waiting for the chance...) can have disagreements, hopefully
> >>>> Tom and Dick will appreciante my point of view here...  Or at least
> >>>> appreciate that I am being honest and don't kiss anyones......
> >>>> later, time to go to work...
> >>>> -------------------------------------
> >>>> You've made your point.   Now, let me make one.
> >>>> Newsgroups always been a place of debate, a forum to express opposing
> >>>> viewpoints and for spirited conversation, within a general category of
> >>>> common interest.  It dates back to the very early days of Usenet and, in
> >>>> fact, predates it.  Anyone who thinks rec.boats should *only* be about boats
> >>>> is woefully unaware of the background of unmoderated newsgroups.
> >>>> But, discussion and debate can be done in a civil manner without resorting
> >>>> to name calling and vulgarity.  That is nothing but childishness.
> >>>> Believe me,  I am not in the habit of kissing anyone's ass, nor do I expect
> >>>> anyone to kiss mine.  However, I can engage is a lively debate without
> >>>> having to resort to personal name calling. ....  most of the time ...  I
> >>>> admit, there is at least one person who posts here that I find so personally
> >>>> disagreeable that I find it very difficult to stick to my own rules.  
> >>>> I debate with Harry for three reasons.  One.  Although I disagree with him
> >>>> regularly, he does make compelling points once in a while that cause me to
> >>>> think.   That never hurt anyone.   Two.   I am well aware of your (and
> >>>> several other people's) objections to me "engaging" with Harry.  I do so
> >>>> however to demonstrate that halfway civil conversation may be had, even if
> >>>> the parties are in total disagreement.  Three.  I've had newsgroup
> >>>> discussions and debates with Harry for about 13 years now.  Eventually, I
> >>>> want to succeed in my goal of converting him into a Republican.
> >>>> If you notice, I also converse with you, and other members that often resort
> >>>> to name calling and frustrated vulgarity.
> >>>> If you also notice, I don't return the same.
> >>>> So, bottom line is, I am sorry you and others can't have civil discussion
> >>>> with those you can't agree with.   To me it sounds like the little kid who,
> >>>> when he can't compete, takes his ball and goes home.  There are several
> >>>> people who participate in this newsgroup who share different viewpoints, but
> >>>> can express them thoughtfully without personally attacking each other.
> >>>> If everyone made an honest effort to drop the personal insults, conversation
> >>>> could be had by all.   The problem and question is, who is big enough to
> >>>> make the first effort?
> >>>> Eisboch
> >>> Well said.. I have one last question for you. Do you, or do you not
> >>> believe there are several here who reguardless of the manner presented
> >>> could never have a civil conversation with Harry without being
> >>> insulted, taken out of text, or just plain misrepresented?   If your
> >>> answer is "no" then I suggest you note the thread about the wooden
> >>> boats. I tried to participate without any insults or misrepsentations,
> >>> and was quickly attacked, my boats, my skills, my knowledge, my
> >>> personal hygene even...:0
> >> Stop whining. You're simply getting back from me what you toss in my
> >> direction. You reap what you sow.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Revisionist history...
>
> Listen up: I suspect you are capable of building decent little dinghies
> and rowboats. Your site and your photos indicate that. That doesn't mean
> you have what it takes in terms of engineering, tools, or knowledge to
> build an ocean capable larger wooden boat, especially one you have
> designed yourself.

Ahhh, but I have designed a nice 26 footer, and the numbers were run
by a well known designer through rhino and found to be a quite
acceptable design. The plans include the internal engineering too,
right down to the electrical and plumbing.... You on the other hand
with so many of your comments prove again and again, you really don't
know much about modern wooden composite boats, save what you have
read.. And furthermore, your comments usually suggest you really never
even built a kit..
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:11:18 -0400, Eisboch wrote:


> Eventually, I want to succeed in my goal of converting him into a
> Republican.


Are you sure you really want to succeed in that?
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

<justwaitafrekinminute.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2f32e2b8-443a-432e-8479-76a649c389d3@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...


At the expence of the rest who really can't participate in those
threads without having to go on the defensive and correct the twisted
bullshit... For someone here to suggest "all you have to do is be nice
to harry" is either niave or malicious. Simply having an opposing
opinion than wafa means you get attacked, especially if you prove his
points to be lies, out of context, or just plain made up.. There are a
very few here who can participate in any of those conversations, so
little but one side and the other sides' lies get put up for
consideration.. not much of a debate;) But if you are debating with
only harry, at least you can pat yourself on the back for pobably
being right...

Yes, this is a direct knock at Dick and my friend Tom... I won't hide
that here, it would be useless. Hey, if Tom, Dick, and Harry (I
have been waiting for the chance...) can have disagreements, hopefully
Tom and Dick will appreciante my point of view here... Or at least
appreciate that I am being honest and don't kiss anyones......
later, time to go to work...

-------------------------------------

You've made your point. Now, let me make one.

Newsgroups always been a place of debate, a forum to express opposing
viewpoints and for spirited conversation, within a general category of
common interest. It dates back to the very early days of Usenet and, in
fact, predates it. Anyone who thinks rec.boats should *only* be about boats
is woefully unaware of the background of unmoderated newsgroups.

But, discussion and debate can be done in a civil manner without resorting
to name calling and vulgarity. That is nothing but childishness.

Believe me, I am not in the habit of kissing anyone's ass, nor do I expect
anyone to kiss mine. However, I can engage is a lively debate without
having to resort to personal name calling. .... most of the time .. I
admit, there is at least one person who posts here that I find so personally
disagreeable that I find it very difficult to stick to my own rules.

I debate with Harry for three reasons. One. Although I disagree with him
regularly, he does make compelling points once in a while that cause me to
think. That never hurt anyone. Two. I am well aware of your (and
several other people's) objections to me "engaging" with Harry. I do so
however to demonstrate that halfway civil conversation may be had, even if
the parties are in total disagreement. Three. I've had newsgroup
discussions and debates with Harry for about 13 years now. Eventually, I
want to succeed in my goal of converting him into a Republican.

If you notice, I also converse with you, and other members that often resort
to name calling and frustrated vulgarity.
If you also notice, I don't return the same.

So, bottom line is, I am sorry you and others can't have civil discussion
with those you can't agree with. To me it sounds like the little kid who,
when he can't compete, takes his ball and goes home. There are several
people who participate in this newsgroup who share different viewpoints, but
can express them thoughtfully without personally attacking each other.

If everyone made an honest effort to drop the personal insults, conversation
could be had by all. The problem and question is, who is big enough to
make the first effort?

Eisboch
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not