Self bailing or not

On Aug 18, 11:46 am, ohara....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com wrote:
> I want to decide whether or not to install self bailing on my Tolman
> to go offshore.  From what I can see, self bailing is installed on
> boats with sealed decks with the scuppers roughly 3" above the deck.
> My boat has no deck because I think it is important to have access to
> the hull at all times.  My current floatation is from two compartments
> with screw on covers at bow and stern.  I can even get into them if
> necessary.  This lack of deck means that any scuppers would be far
> above the bottom of the boat and would not drain much water.  Instead,
> I rely on the inherent dryness of the boat (very high bow and sides)
> and the completely sealed dry well in front of the motor and a large
> 3500 gph pump just in case.  From my reading, I see that scuppers seem
> to cause a lot of problems too.  However, one web site stated flatly
> that any boat going offshore had to have self bailing.  So, thoughts?

I was going to ask if your boat was built using the calculations to
keep it floating level. After reading the above post however, my first
question is, do your flotation compartments incorporate the hull skin
as part of the enclosed structure?
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 18, 12:15 pm, JamesGan... RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 18, 11:46 am, ohara... RemoveThis @mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > I want to decide whether or not to install self bailing on my Tolman
> > to go offshore. From what I can see, self bailing is installed on
> > boats with sealed decks with the scuppers roughly 3" above the deck.
> > My boat has no deck because I think it is important to have access to
> > the hull at all times. My current floatation is from two compartments
> > with screw on covers at bow and stern. I can even get into them if
> > necessary. This lack of deck means that any scuppers would be far
> > above the bottom of the boat and would not drain much water. Instead,
> > I rely on the inherent dryness of the boat (very high bow and sides)
> > and the completely sealed dry well in front of the motor and a large
> > 3500 gph pump just in case. From my reading, I see that scuppers seem
> > to cause a lot of problems too. However, one web site stated flatly
> > that any boat going offshore had to have self bailing. So, thoughts?
>
> It would be pointless to install scuppers on your boat. And 3500 gph
> is under extremely ideal conditions. Best figure that your real world
> results would be about half that. That's about 30 gpm. If you take
> multiple hits, no bilge pump is going to keep up. Make sure you
> travel in a group if you're going offshore in a boat not really suited
> to be offshore. It's not that you can't make the trip successfully
> given the correct conditions. It's that many combinations of things
> can rapidly overwhelm you. Simply encountering a small storm and then
> having the engine quit can be more than your boat can handle.

I do have a 9.8 hp pull start kicker too.
BTW, I currently do not have a cover for my boat and last week I left
the plug in her and she filled with rainwater to the height of the
stringers (8"). I used my small pump (750 gal/hr) to pump her out and
it took 5 min. The same thing with the 3500 gph should therefor take
about 65 sec. I am installing the 3500 with asmooth hose instead of
the corrugated stuff so it may be even faster.
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 18, 12:29 pm, ohara....DeleteThis@mindspring.com wrote:
> On Aug 18, 12:15 pm, JamesGan....DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 18, 11:46 am, ohara....DeleteThis@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > > I want to decide whether or not to install self bailing on my Tolman
> > > to go offshore. From what I can see, self bailing is installed on
> > > boats with sealed decks with the scuppers roughly 3" above the deck.
> > > My boat has no deck because I think it is important to have access to
> > > the hull at all times. My current floatation is from two compartments
> > > with screw on covers at bow and stern. I can even get into them if
> > > necessary. This lack of deck means that any scuppers would be far
> > > above the bottom of the boat and would not drain much water. Instead,
> > > I rely on the inherent dryness of the boat (very high bow and sides)
> > > and the completely sealed dry well in front of the motor and a large
> > > 3500 gph pump just in case. From my reading, I see that scuppers seem
> > > to cause a lot of problems too. However, one web site stated flatly
> > > that any boat going offshore had to have self bailing. So, thoughts?
>
> > It would be pointless to install scuppers on your boat. And 3500 gph
> > is under extremely ideal conditions. Best figure that your real world
> > results would be about half that. That's about 30 gpm. If you take
> > multiple hits, no bilge pump is going to keep up. Make sure you
> > travel in a group if you're going offshore in a boat not really suited
> > to be offshore. It's not that you can't make the trip successfully
> > given the correct conditions. It's that many combinations of things
> > can rapidly overwhelm you. Simply encountering a small storm and then
> > having the engine quit can be more than your boat can handle.
>
> I do have a 9.8 hp pull start kicker too.
> BTW, I currently do not have a cover for my boat and last week I left
> the plug in her and she filled with rainwater to the height of the
> stringers (8"). I used my small pump (750 gal/hr) to pump her out and
> it took 5 min. The same thing with the 3500 gph should therefor take
> about 65 sec. I am installing the 3500 with asmooth hose instead of
> the corrugated stuff so it may be even faster.

Currently, the float compartments use the hull skin. For this trip, I
intend to fill them with small closed cell foam blocks. I also intend
to fill part of my oversized drywell in front of the motor with foam
blocks.
I could install a temporary deck with closed cell foam below it and
install very large scuppers above said deck. You can do stuff like
this in a home built boat.
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 18, 12:46 pm, ohara....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com wrote:
> On Aug 18, 12:29 pm, ohara....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 18, 12:15 pm, JamesGan....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 18, 11:46 am, ohara....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > > > I want to decide whether or not to install self bailing on my Tolman
> > > > to go offshore.  From what I can see, self bailing is installed on
> > > > boats with sealed decks with the scuppers roughly 3" above the deck..
> > > > My boat has no deck because I think it is important to have access to
> > > > the hull at all times.  My current floatation is from two compartments
> > > > with screw on covers at bow and stern.  I can even get into them if
> > > > necessary.  This lack of deck means that any scuppers would be far
> > > > above the bottom of the boat and would not drain much water.  Instead,
> > > > I rely on the inherent dryness of the boat (very high bow and sides)
> > > > and the completely sealed dry well in front of the motor and a large
> > > > 3500 gph pump just in case.  From my reading, I see that scuppers seem
> > > > to cause a lot of problems too.  However, one web site stated flatly
> > > > that any boat going offshore had to have self bailing.  So, thoughts?
>
> > > It would be pointless to install scuppers on your boat.  And 3500 gph
> > > is under extremely ideal conditions.  Best figure that your real world
> > > results would be about half that.  That's about 30 gpm.  If you take
> > > multiple hits, no bilge pump is going to keep up.  Make sure you
> > > travel in a group if you're going offshore in a boat not really suited
> > > to be offshore.  It's not that you can't make the trip successfully
> > > given the correct conditions.  It's that many combinations of things
> > > can rapidly overwhelm you.  Simply encountering a small storm and then
> > > having the engine quit can be more than your boat can handle.
>
> > I do have a 9.8 hp pull start kicker too.
> > BTW, I currently do not have a cover for my boat and last week I left
> > the plug in her and she filled with rainwater to the height of the
> > stringers (8").  I used my small pump (750 gal/hr) to pump her out and
> > it took 5 min.  The same thing with the 3500 gph should therefor take
> > about 65 sec.  I am installing the 3500 with asmooth hose instead of
> > the corrugated stuff so it may be even faster.
>
> Currently, the float compartments use the hull skin.  For this trip, I
> intend to fill them with small closed cell foam blocks.  I also intend
> to fill part of my oversized drywell in front of the motor with foam
> blocks.
> I could install a temporary deck with closed cell foam below it and
> install very large scuppers above said deck.  You can do stuff like
> this in a home built boat.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I am pretty familiar with home built boats, and the USCG regs.. Right
now, yours is not up to code.. If you simply fill the voids with
unattached blocks of foam, and those compartments utilize the hull
skin for containment, it still does not meet code (you could be
excluded because of length, but why be..) If are going to fill the
compartments with closed cell foam, I would suggest you incorporate
"great stuff" of similar to adhear the blocks to each other and the
inside of the frames.. I have also used drilled holes in chunks of
foam, strung together with rope.. as well as the "great stuff" (used
as adhesive, not as flotation itself.

Another thing I suggest on homebuilts is lots of ropes. I have short
ropes attached under the Gunwhales of many of my smaller boats which
can ge bent into a quick boline to hang onto or tie off to in event of
a swamping or capsize...

Scotty
SmallBoats.com
RowdyMouseRacing.com
Trip-Reports.com Where did you go today..;
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 18, 12:29 pm, ohara....RemoveThis@mindspring.com wrote:
> On Aug 18, 12:15 pm, JamesGan....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 18, 11:46 am, ohara....RemoveThis@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > > I want to decide whether or not to install self bailing on my Tolman
> > > to go offshore.  From what I can see, self bailing is installed on
> > > boats with sealed decks with the scuppers roughly 3" above the deck.
> > > My boat has no deck because I think it is important to have access to
> > > the hull at all times.  My current floatation is from two compartments
> > > with screw on covers at bow and stern.  I can even get into them if
> > > necessary.  This lack of deck means that any scuppers would be far
> > > above the bottom of the boat and would not drain much water.  Instead,
> > > I rely on the inherent dryness of the boat (very high bow and sides)
> > > and the completely sealed dry well in front of the motor and a large
> > > 3500 gph pump just in case.  From my reading, I see that scuppers seem
> > > to cause a lot of problems too.  However, one web site stated flatly
> > > that any boat going offshore had to have self bailing.  So, thoughts?
>
> > It would be pointless to install scuppers on your boat.  And 3500 gph
> > is under extremely ideal conditions.  Best figure that your real world
> > results would be about half that.  That's about 30 gpm.  If you take
> > multiple hits, no bilge pump is going to keep up.  Make sure you
> > travel in a group if you're going offshore in a boat not really suited
> > to be offshore.  It's not that you can't make the trip successfully
> > given the correct conditions.  It's that many combinations of things
> > can rapidly overwhelm you.  Simply encountering a small storm and then
> > having the engine quit can be more than your boat can handle.
>
> I do have a 9.8 hp pull start kicker too.
> BTW, I currently do not have a cover for my boat and last week I left
> the plug in her and she filled with rainwater to the height of the
> stringers (8").  I used my small pump (750 gal/hr) to pump her out and
> it took 5 min.  The same thing with the 3500 gph should therefor take
> about 65 sec.  I am installing the 3500 with asmooth hose instead of
> the corrugated stuff so it may be even faster.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You don't understand. You don't get 5 minutes between waves. You
don't even get 30 seconds. If you lose engine power is a squall and
can't keep the bow into the waves then you're in big trouble. If you
start taking waves over the side or transom then in very short order
you'e going to be swamped. Each wave is going to lower your boat so
that the next wave dumps in even more water. We talking just a
handful of waves before you are swamped. Your kicker will not be
strong enough in storm. The wind and waves will overwhelm a 9.8 hp
motor. Maybe it clears up fast and you still have enough battery
power to pump it out. The battery will die fast once salt water gets
to it.

Bottom line you need to have someone around that can pick you up if
the worst happens.

This is a homebuilt? Do you know that your floatation will keep the
boat afloat when swamped? How did you calculate the flotation? Have
you tested it? Or do you just "think" it's enough? Take it out into
a couple feet of water some place with a sandy bottom and where you
can get a rope to a tow vehicle on shore then sink it. See what
happens. If it sinks to the bottom just drag it towards the shore
until you can pump it out.
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 18, 1:21 pm, JamesGan....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 18, 12:29 pm, ohara....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 18, 12:15 pm, JamesGan....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 18, 11:46 am, ohara....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > > > I want to decide whether or not to install self bailing on my Tolman
> > > > to go offshore. From what I can see, self bailing is installed on
> > > > boats with sealed decks with the scuppers roughly 3" above the deck.
> > > > My boat has no deck because I think it is important to have access to
> > > > the hull at all times. My current floatation is from two compartments
> > > > with screw on covers at bow and stern. I can even get into them if
> > > > necessary. This lack of deck means that any scuppers would be far
> > > > above the bottom of the boat and would not drain much water. Instead,
> > > > I rely on the inherent dryness of the boat (very high bow and sides)
> > > > and the completely sealed dry well in front of the motor and a large
> > > > 3500 gph pump just in case. From my reading, I see that scuppers seem
> > > > to cause a lot of problems too. However, one web site stated flatly
> > > > that any boat going offshore had to have self bailing. So, thoughts?
>
> > > It would be pointless to install scuppers on your boat. And 3500 gph
> > > is under extremely ideal conditions. Best figure that your real world
> > > results would be about half that. That's about 30 gpm. If you take
> > > multiple hits, no bilge pump is going to keep up. Make sure you
> > > travel in a group if you're going offshore in a boat not really suited
> > > to be offshore. It's not that you can't make the trip successfully
> > > given the correct conditions. It's that many combinations of things
> > > can rapidly overwhelm you. Simply encountering a small storm and then
> > > having the engine quit can be more than your boat can handle.
>
> > I do have a 9.8 hp pull start kicker too.
> > BTW, I currently do not have a cover for my boat and last week I left
> > the plug in her and she filled with rainwater to the height of the
> > stringers (8"). I used my small pump (750 gal/hr) to pump her out and
> > it took 5 min. The same thing with the 3500 gph should therefor take
> > about 65 sec. I am installing the 3500 with asmooth hose instead of
> > the corrugated stuff so it may be even faster.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> You don't understand. You don't get 5 minutes between waves. You
> don't even get 30 seconds. If you lose engine power is a squall and
> can't keep the bow into the waves then you're in big trouble. If you
> start taking waves over the side or transom then in very short order
> you'e going to be swamped. Each wave is going to lower your boat so
> that the next wave dumps in even more water. We talking just a
> handful of waves before you are swamped. Your kicker will not be
> strong enough in storm. The wind and waves will overwhelm a 9.8 hp
> motor. Maybe it clears up fast and you still have enough battery
> power to pump it out. The battery will die fast once salt water gets
> to it.
>
> Bottom line you need to have someone around that can pick you up if
> the worst happens.
>
> This is a homebuilt? Do you know that your floatation will keep the
> boat afloat when swamped? How did you calculate the flotation? Have
> you tested it? Or do you just "think" it's enough? Take it out into
> a couple feet of water some place with a sandy bottom and where you
> can get a rope to a tow vehicle on shore then sink it. See what
> happens. If it sinks to the bottom just drag it towards the shore
> until you can pump it out.
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 18, 1:21 pm, JamesGan....DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 18, 12:29 pm, ohara....DeleteThis@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 18, 12:15 pm, JamesGan....DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 18, 11:46 am, ohara....DeleteThis@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > > > I want to decide whether or not to install self bailing on my Tolman
> > > > to go offshore.  From what I can see, self bailing is installed on
> > > > boats with sealed decks with the scuppers roughly 3" above the deck..
> > > > My boat has no deck because I think it is important to have access to
> > > > the hull at all times.  My current floatation is from two compartments
> > > > with screw on covers at bow and stern.  I can even get into them if
> > > > necessary.  This lack of deck means that any scuppers would be far
> > > > above the bottom of the boat and would not drain much water.  Instead,
> > > > I rely on the inherent dryness of the boat (very high bow and sides)
> > > > and the completely sealed dry well in front of the motor and a large
> > > > 3500 gph pump just in case.  From my reading, I see that scuppers seem
> > > > to cause a lot of problems too.  However, one web site stated flatly
> > > > that any boat going offshore had to have self bailing.  So, thoughts?
>
> > > It would be pointless to install scuppers on your boat.  And 3500 gph
> > > is under extremely ideal conditions.  Best figure that your real world
> > > results would be about half that.  That's about 30 gpm.  If you take
> > > multiple hits, no bilge pump is going to keep up.  Make sure you
> > > travel in a group if you're going offshore in a boat not really suited
> > > to be offshore.  It's not that you can't make the trip successfully
> > > given the correct conditions.  It's that many combinations of things
> > > can rapidly overwhelm you.  Simply encountering a small storm and then
> > > having the engine quit can be more than your boat can handle.
>
> > I do have a 9.8 hp pull start kicker too.
> > BTW, I currently do not have a cover for my boat and last week I left
> > the plug in her and she filled with rainwater to the height of the
> > stringers (8").  I used my small pump (750 gal/hr) to pump her out and
> > it took 5 min.  The same thing with the 3500 gph should therefor take
> > about 65 sec.  I am installing the 3500 with asmooth hose instead of
> > the corrugated stuff so it may be even faster.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> You don't understand.  You don't get 5 minutes between waves.  You
> don't even get 30 seconds.  If you lose engine power is a squall and
> can't keep the bow into the waves then you're in big trouble.  If you
> start taking waves over the side or transom then in very short order
> you'e going to be swamped.  Each wave is going to lower your boat so
> that the next wave dumps in even more water.  We talking just a
> handful of waves before you are swamped.  Your kicker will not be
> strong enough in storm.  The wind and waves will overwhelm a 9.8 hp
> motor.  Maybe it clears up fast and you still have enough battery
> power to pump it out.  The battery will die fast once salt water gets
> to it.
>
> Bottom line you need to have someone around that can pick you up if
> the worst happens.
>
> This is a homebuilt?  Do you know that your floatation will keep the
> boat afloat when swamped?  How did you calculate the flotation?  Have
> you tested it?  Or do you just "think" it's enough?  Take it out into
> a couple feet of water some place with a sandy bottom and where you
> can get a rope to a tow vehicle on shore then sink it.  See what
> happens.  If it sinks to the bottom just drag it towards the shore
> until you can pump it out.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Right now, he has flotation compartments that utilize the hull skin as
part of the compartment.. I have made a couple of suggestions as to
how he can make them better. For now, I want to not jump down his
throat as he has been taking a beating from one of our most famous
trolls so he may (rightfully so) be getting a little defensive.. I
am sure he is here trying to do the right thing, so I will keep
watching...
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 18, 1:46 pm, hk <payer33....DeleteThis@mypacks.net> wrote:

>
> The proper advice is to advise O'Hara not make the trip in his Tolman.
> It's just too risky, especially for a guy that whatever his sailboating
> experience seems really limited on open ocean powerboat experience.
>

Because I don't talk out of my ass, I know about wood/composite
construction and flotation, that's what I will talk about. Folks just
need to know that your info is often scewed by, who knows what? Often
times either googled, or worse, wiki, then taken out of context or
edited, or just plain bullshit all together, just to fight. Your
constant mocking and trolling keeps many good folks from posting here.
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 18, 1:21 pm, JamesGan... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 18, 12:29 pm, ohara... DeleteThis @mindspring.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 18, 12:15 pm, JamesGan... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 18, 11:46 am, ohara... DeleteThis @mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > > > I want to decide whether or not to install self bailing on my Tolman
> > > > to go offshore. From what I can see, self bailing is installed on
> > > > boats with sealed decks with the scuppers roughly 3" above the deck.
> > > > My boat has no deck because I think it is important to have access to
> > > > the hull at all times. My current floatation is from two compartments
> > > > with screw on covers at bow and stern. I can even get into them if
> > > > necessary. This lack of deck means that any scuppers would be far
> > > > above the bottom of the boat and would not drain much water. Instead,
> > > > I rely on the inherent dryness of the boat (very high bow and sides)
> > > > and the completely sealed dry well in front of the motor and a large
> > > > 3500 gph pump just in case. From my reading, I see that scuppers seem
> > > > to cause a lot of problems too. However, one web site stated flatly
> > > > that any boat going offshore had to have self bailing. So, thoughts?
>
> > > It would be pointless to install scuppers on your boat. And 3500 gph
> > > is under extremely ideal conditions. Best figure that your real world
> > > results would be about half that. That's about 30 gpm. If you take
> > > multiple hits, no bilge pump is going to keep up. Make sure you
> > > travel in a group if you're going offshore in a boat not really suited
> > > to be offshore. It's not that you can't make the trip successfully
> > > given the correct conditions. It's that many combinations of things
> > > can rapidly overwhelm you. Simply encountering a small storm and then
> > > having the engine quit can be more than your boat can handle.
>
> > I do have a 9.8 hp pull start kicker too.
> > BTW, I currently do not have a cover for my boat and last week I left
> > the plug in her and she filled with rainwater to the height of the
> > stringers (8"). I used my small pump (750 gal/hr) to pump her out and
> > it took 5 min. The same thing with the 3500 gph should therefor take
> > about 65 sec. I am installing the 3500 with asmooth hose instead of
> > the corrugated stuff so it may be even faster.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> You don't understand. You don't get 5 minutes between waves. You
> don't even get 30 seconds. If you lose engine power is a squall and
> can't keep the bow into the waves then you're in big trouble. If you
> start taking waves over the side or transom then in very short order
> you'e going to be swamped. Each wave is going to lower your boat so
> that the next wave dumps in even more water. We talking just a
> handful of waves before you are swamped. Your kicker will not be
> strong enough in storm. The wind and waves will overwhelm a 9.8 hp
> motor. Maybe it clears up fast and you still have enough battery
> power to pump it out. The battery will die fast once salt water gets
> to it.
>
> Bottom line you need to have someone around that can pick you up if
> the worst happens.
>
> This is a homebuilt? Do you know that your floatation will keep the
> boat afloat when swamped? How did you calculate the flotation? Have
> you tested it? Or do you just "think" it's enough? Take it out into
> a couple feet of water some place with a sandy bottom and where you
> can get a rope to a tow vehicle on shore then sink it. See what
> happens. If it sinks to the bottom just drag it towards the shore
> until you can pump it out.

I have built smaller boats and tried various forms of floatation.
Great Stuff is not so great for boats. It actually absorbs water. It
also sticks to everything. A better thing to do is packing peanuts
contained in bags. The foam must be removable in order to be able to
inspect the hull. I will put the closed cell foam blocks into mesh
bags inside the float compartments.
I calculated the floatation based on weight of the boat (estimated at
800 lbs) plus the weight of the two motors and doubled that. BTW, the
hull has positive buoyancy anyway.
I have looked at commercially available scuppers and they seem to be a
joke. A 1.5" hole with a strainer that covers up 30% at least? This
is s'posed to empty your boat in less than 90 secs, not likely, even
with two of them as most "offshore" boats have will not do it in less
than 5 minutes. A bilge pump really is faster. The only scupper
worthwhile would seem to be very large but unless I had a deck they
would be useless. I have seen very few "offshore" boats with such
huge scuppers.
My transom is very high as are the sides. Compared to most other
boats drifting with no power, I am much better off, even compared to
most "offshore boats" because I have so much more reserve than they
do.
I also intend to buy a drift anchor just in case both engines die to
keep her head into the wind.
Can a 9.8 hp keep her pointed into the wind in a storm, the answer
seems to be "yes". My 8000 lb sailboat with much greater windage came
with only a 6.5 hp diesel that had no problem keeping the head into
the wind in several thunderstorms.
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 18, 1:56 pm, ohara....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com wrote:
> On Aug 18, 1:21 pm, JamesGan....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 18, 12:29 pm, ohara....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 18, 12:15 pm, JamesGan....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Aug 18, 11:46 am, ohara....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > > > > I want to decide whether or not to install self bailing on my Tolman
> > > > > to go offshore.  From what I can see, self bailing is installed on
> > > > > boats with sealed decks with the scuppers roughly 3" above the deck.
> > > > > My boat has no deck because I think it is important to have access to
> > > > > the hull at all times.  My current floatation is from two compartments
> > > > > with screw on covers at bow and stern.  I can even get into them if
> > > > > necessary.  This lack of deck means that any scuppers would be far
> > > > > above the bottom of the boat and would not drain much water.  Instead,
> > > > > I rely on the inherent dryness of the boat (very high bow and sides)
> > > > > and the completely sealed dry well in front of the motor and a large
> > > > > 3500 gph pump just in case.  From my reading, I see that scuppers seem
> > > > > to cause a lot of problems too.  However, one web site stated flatly
> > > > > that any boat going offshore had to have self bailing.  So, thoughts?
>
> > > > It would be pointless to install scuppers on your boat.  And 3500 gph
> > > > is under extremely ideal conditions.  Best figure that your real world
> > > > results would be about half that.  That's about 30 gpm.  If you take
> > > > multiple hits, no bilge pump is going to keep up.  Make sure you
> > > > travel in a group if you're going offshore in a boat not really suited
> > > > to be offshore.  It's not that you can't make the trip successfully
> > > > given the correct conditions.  It's that many combinations of things
> > > > can rapidly overwhelm you.  Simply encountering a small storm and then
> > > > having the engine quit can be more than your boat can handle.
>
> > > I do have a 9.8 hp pull start kicker too.
> > > BTW, I currently do not have a cover for my boat and last week I left
> > > the plug in her and she filled with rainwater to the height of the
> > > stringers (8").  I used my small pump (750 gal/hr) to pump her out and
> > > it took 5 min.  The same thing with the 3500 gph should therefor take
> > > about 65 sec.  I am installing the 3500 with asmooth hose instead of
> > > the corrugated stuff so it may be even faster.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > You don't understand.  You don't get 5 minutes between waves.  You
> > don't even get 30 seconds.  If you lose engine power is a squall and
> > can't keep the bow into the waves then you're in big trouble.  If you
> > start taking waves over the side or transom then in very short order
> > you'e going to be swamped.  Each wave is going to lower your boat so
> > that the next wave dumps in even more water.  We talking just a
> > handful of waves before you are swamped.  Your kicker will not be
> > strong enough in storm.  The wind and waves will overwhelm a 9.8 hp
> > motor.  Maybe it clears up fast and you still have enough battery
> > power to pump it out.  The battery will die fast once salt water gets
> > to it.
>
> > Bottom line you need to have someone around that can pick you up if
> > the worst happens.
>
> > This is a homebuilt?  Do you know that your floatation will keep the
> > boat afloat when swamped?  How did you calculate the flotation?  Have
> > you tested it?  Or do you just "think" it's enough?  Take it out into
> > a couple feet of water some place with a sandy bottom and where you
> > can get a rope to a tow vehicle on shore then sink it.  See what
> > happens.  If it sinks to the bottom just drag it towards the shore
> > until you can pump it out.
>
> I have built smaller boats and tried various forms of floatation.
> Great Stuff is not so great for boats.  It actually absorbs water.  It
> also sticks to everything.  A better thing to do is packing peanuts
> contained in bags.  The foam must be removable in order to be able to
> inspect the hull.  I will put the closed cell foam blocks into mesh
> bags inside the float compartments.
> I calculated the floatation based on weight of the boat (estimated at
> 800 lbs) plus the weight of the two motors and doubled that.  BTW, the
> hull has positive buoyancy anyway.
> I have looked at commercially available scuppers and they seem to be a
> joke.  A 1.5" hole with a strainer that covers up 30% at least?  This
> is s'posed to empty your boat in less than 90 secs, not likely, even
> with two of them as most "offshore" boats have will not do it in less
> than 5 minutes.  A bilge pump really is faster.  The only scupper
> worthwhile would seem to be very large but unless I had a deck they
> would be useless.  I have seen very few "offshore" boats with such
> huge scuppers.
> My transom is very high as are the sides.  Compared to most other
> boats drifting with no power, I am much better off, even compared to
> most "offshore boats" because I have so much more reserve than they
> do.
> I also intend to buy a drift anchor just in case both engines die to
> keep her head into the wind.
> Can a 9.8 hp keep her pointed into the wind in a storm, the answer
> seems to be "yes".  My 8000 lb sailboat with much greater windage came
> with only a 6.5 hp diesel that had no problem keeping the head into
> the wind in several thunderstorms.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

If you do this alone then you place little value on your life. It's
just that simple.
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 18, 2:50 pm, hk <payer33... DeleteThis @mypacks.net> wrote:
> justwaitafrekinmin... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
> > On Aug 18, 1:46 pm, hk <payer33... DeleteThis @mypacks.net> wrote:
>
> >> The proper advice is to advise O'Hara not make the trip in his Tolman.
> >> It's just too risky, especially for a guy that whatever his sailboating
> >> experience seems really limited on open ocean powerboat experience.
>
> > Because I don't talk out of my ass, I know about wood/composite
> > construction and flotation, that's what I will talk about. Folks just
> > need to know that your info is often scewed by, who knows what? Often
> > times either googled, or worse, wiki, then taken out of context or
> > edited, or just plain bullshit all together, just to fight. Your
> > constant mocking and trolling keeps many good folks from posting here.
>
> Once again, I point out you have little or no experience building
> ocean-capable boats or operating same. No experience means no
> experience. You build dinghies and rowboats, none of which I would take
> into the ocean, and most of which I would not take into Long Island Sound..
>
> Further, the other day you vehemently denied that Tolman skiffs
> incorporated stitch and glue construction, an opinion shot to hell by
> Renn Tolman himself, the designer of these boats.
>
> Finally, you have a cavalier attitude towards the value of life, as
> evidenced by your allowing, even encouraging, your minor child's
> participation in motorcycle racing.
>
> What O'Hara does is his decision. He has been asking for advice that
> relates to his personal safety in undertaking a 50-mile ocean voyage in
> a very light, small boat. Reasonable posters with ocean experience have
> advised against him making the trip in that boat.
>
> --
> I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do
> something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do
> the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I
> should do, by the grace of God, I will do.
>
> — Edward Everett Hale (1822-1909)

Look guys, this is all in fun. Sure, I'd like to do this but I do
value my life. Maybe I will if I can convince myself that I need some
more adventure but maybe not too. Wouldnt any of you even be tempted
to try this?
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 18, 3:17 pm, hk <payer33....TakeThisOut@mypacks.net> wrote:
> ohara....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com wrote:
> > On Aug 18, 2:50 pm, hk <payer33....TakeThisOut@mypacks.net> wrote:
> >> justwaitafrekinmin....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Aug 18, 1:46 pm, hk <payer33....TakeThisOut@mypacks.net> wrote:
> >>>> The proper advice is to advise O'Hara not make the trip in his Tolman.
> >>>> It's just too risky, especially for a guy that whatever his sailboating
> >>>> experience seems really limited on open ocean powerboat experience.
> >>> Because I don't talk out of my ass, I know about wood/composite
> >>> construction and flotation, that's what I will talk about. Folks just
> >>> need to know that your info is often scewed by, who knows what? Often
> >>> times either googled, or worse, wiki, then taken out of context or
> >>> edited, or just plain bullshit all together, just to fight. Your
> >>> constant mocking and trolling keeps many good folks from posting here..
> >> Once again, I point out you have little or no experience building
> >> ocean-capable boats or operating same. No experience means no
> >> experience. You build dinghies and rowboats, none of which I would take
> >> into the ocean, and most of which I would not take into Long Island Sound.
>
> >> Further, the other day you vehemently denied that Tolman skiffs
> >> incorporated stitch and glue construction, an opinion shot to hell by
> >> Renn Tolman himself, the designer of these boats.
>
> >> Finally, you have a cavalier attitude towards the value of life, as
> >> evidenced by your allowing, even encouraging, your minor child's
> >> participation in motorcycle racing.
>
> >> What O'Hara does is his decision. He has been asking for advice that
> >> relates to his personal safety in undertaking a 50-mile ocean voyage in
> >> a very light, small boat. Reasonable posters with ocean experience have
> >> advised against him making the trip in that boat.
>
> >> --
> >> I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do
> >> something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do
> >> the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I
> >> should do, by the grace of God, I will do.
>
> >> — Edward Everett Hale (1822-1909)
>
> > Look guys, this is all in fun. Sure, I'd like to do this but I do
> > value my life. Maybe I will if I can convince myself that I need some
> > more adventure but maybe not too. Wouldnt any of you even be tempted
> > to try this?
>
> Not in a boat like yours...or mine. Too small. Not in my former Parker,
> either, even though the boat was capable. It only had one engine. Now,
> if I had an aux engine on that boat, I would have considered the trip.
>
> --
> I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do
> something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do
> the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I
> should do, by the grace of God, I will do.
>
> — Edward Everett Hale (1822-1909)

Well, When I am ancient sitting in a nursing home with some cute nurse
changing my Depends, and she says conversationally, "Mr. OHara, you
must have done some interesting things when you were younger", I dont
want to just give her a blank look. I have a neighbor like that, a
nice guy but he doesnt dream of doing much, all he wants is to retire
and veg out, maybe fish now and then.
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not 

On Aug 18, 3:17 pm, hk <payer33....RemoveThis@mypacks.net> wrote:
> ohara....RemoveThis@mindspring.com wrote:
> > On Aug 18, 2:50 pm, hk <payer33....RemoveThis@mypacks.net> wrote:
> >> justwaitafrekinmin....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Aug 18, 1:46 pm, hk <payer33....RemoveThis@mypacks.net> wrote:
> >>>> The proper advice is to advise O'Hara not make the trip in his Tolman.
> >>>> It's just too risky, especially for a guy that whatever his sailboating
> >>>> experience seems really limited on open ocean powerboat experience.
> >>> Because I don't talk out of my ass, I know about wood/composite
> >>> construction and flotation, that's what I will talk about.  Folks just
> >>> need to know that your info is often scewed by, who knows what? Often
> >>> times either googled, or worse, wiki, then taken out of context or
> >>> edited, or just plain bullshit all together, just to fight. Your
> >>> constant mocking and trolling keeps many good folks from posting here..
> >> Once again, I point out you have little or no experience building
> >> ocean-capable boats or operating same. No experience means no
> >> experience. You build dinghies and rowboats, none of which I would take
> >> into the ocean, and most of which I would not take into Long Island Sound.
>
> >> Further, the other day you vehemently denied that Tolman skiffs
> >> incorporated stitch and glue construction, an opinion shot to hell by
> >> Renn Tolman himself, the designer of these boats.
>
> >> Finally, you have a cavalier attitude towards the value of life, as
> >> evidenced by your allowing, even encouraging, your minor child's
> >> participation in motorcycle racing.
>
> >> What O'Hara does is his decision. He has been asking for advice that
> >> relates to his personal safety in undertaking a 50-mile ocean voyage in
> >> a very light, small boat. Reasonable posters with ocean experience have
> >> advised against him making the trip in that boat.
>
> >> --
> >> I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do
> >> something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do
> >> the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I
> >> should do, by the grace of God, I will do.
>
> >> — Edward Everett Hale (1822-1909)
>
> > Look guys, this is all in fun.  Sure, I'd like to do this but I do
> > value my life.  Maybe I will if I can convince myself that I need some
> > more adventure but maybe not too.  Wouldnt any of you even be tempted
> > to try this?
>
> Not in a boat like yours...or mine. Too small. Not in my former Parker,
> either, even though the boat was capable. It only had one engine. Now,
> if I had an aux engine on that boat, I would have considered the trip.

I'd rather make the voyage in a canoe than an imaginary lobster
boat.....
 >> Stay informed about: Self bailing or not