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Next: Upper Missouri River in MT
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Since: Jun 25, 2003
Posts: 835
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:53 pm
Post subject: actual deaths in kayaks
Archived from groups: rec>boats>paddle (more info?)
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this seems to be a day for odd questions from somewhere deep in the
interior of my skull but I was wondering after reading this newsgroup for
some time if there are any well-known, or even lesser-known, white water
kayak paddlers who have died in their sleep. what would be the "in action"
mortaltity rate compared to, say, test pilots and salvage divers, neither
of these two being recreational activites people pay money to do instead
of earning money doing.
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William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
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External
Since: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 86
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:31 pm
Post subject: Re: actual deaths in kayaks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I(*n the UK which has the lowest fatality per mile driven on the roads
rate in the significant countries of the world it is far more likely
that you will kill yourself driving to the river than on the river.
Mind you, you could look at it this way
Grade 6 is the most dangerous but more people drown on grade 1 water so
paddle grade 6.
More people die driving to the river than paddling on the river so stay
at home
Most accidents happen at home so stay in bed.
Statistically lying in bed is by far the most dangerous thing you can do
as the majority of people die in bed!
In message <cf8o7m$1b6$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>, William R. Watt
<ag384.RemoveThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes
>
>this seems to be a day for odd questions from somewhere deep in the
>interior of my skull but I was wondering after reading this newsgroup for
>some time if there are any well-known, or even lesser-known, white water
>kayak paddlers who have died in their sleep. what would be the "in action"
>mortaltity rate compared to, say, test pilots and salvage divers, neither
>of these two being recreational activites people pay money to do instead
>of earning money doing.
>
>--
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
<font color=purple> >homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font</a>>
>warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk" target="_blank">http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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External
Since: Aug 06, 2004
Posts: 17
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:17 pm
Post subject: Re: actual deaths in kayaks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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in article tCjrOMC8fIGBFwql.TakeThisOut@dmanby.demon.co.uk, Dave Manby at
dave.TakeThisOut@dmanby.demon.co.uk wrote on 8/10/04 4:31 AM:
> I(*n the UK which has the lowest fatality per mile driven on the roads
> rate in the significant countries of the world it is far more likely
> that you will kill yourself driving to the river than on the river.
>
> Mind you, you could look at it this way
>
> Grade 6 is the most dangerous but more people drown on grade 1 water so
> paddle grade 6.
> More people die driving to the river than paddling on the river so stay
> at home
> Most accidents happen at home so stay in bed.
> Statistically lying in bed is by far the most dangerous thing you can do
> as the majority of people die in bed!
I think perhaps "cause of death" and "location of death" are getting
confused here!
> In message <cf8o7m$1b6$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>, William R. Watt
> <ag384.TakeThisOut@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes
>>
>> this seems to be a day for odd questions from somewhere deep in the
>> interior of my skull but I was wondering after reading this newsgroup for
>> some time if there are any well-known, or even lesser-known, white water
>> kayak paddlers who have died in their sleep. what would be the "in action"
>> mortaltity rate compared to, say, test pilots and salvage divers, neither
>> of these two being recreational activites people pay money to do instead
>> of earning money doing.
>>
>> --
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
->> -
>> William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
<font color=green> >> homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font</a>>
>> warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: actual deaths in kayaks |
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External
Since: Jul 23, 2004
Posts: 12
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:22 am
Post subject: Re: actual deaths in kayaks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Keenan Wellar" <gokayakingdotca.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BD3EC1B7.ADE2%gokayakingdotca@hotmail.com...
> in article tCjrOMC8fIGBFwql.DeleteThis@dmanby.demon.co.uk, Dave Manby at
> dave.DeleteThis@dmanby.demon.co.uk wrote on 8/10/04 4:31 AM:
> > Statistically lying in bed is by far the most dangerous thing you can do
> > as the majority of people die in bed!
>
> I think perhaps "cause of death" and "location of death" are getting
> confused here!
>
His point exactly, gaving a very good example of how faulty cause-and-effect
reasoning can lead to invalid conclusions.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: actual deaths in kayaks |
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External
Since: May 27, 2004
Posts: 18
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:30 pm
Post subject: Re: actual deaths in kayaks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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One often hears statistics such as death rates from scuba diving being
approximately equal to mowing lawns. Are these statistics based on the
population that regularly engages in these activities or the total
population?
Obviously if one does not scuba dive their risk of dying from this
activity is zero. So using the total population to calculate the death
rate for activities practiced by a very small proportion of the
population would depress those rates tremendously.
"Don Freeman" <freemand.REMOVE.RemoveThis@sonic.net> wrote in message news:<bNcSc.6786$54.105406@typhoon.sonic.net>...
> "Keenan Wellar" <gokayakingdotca.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:BD3EC1B7.ADE2%gokayakingdotca@hotmail.com...
> > in article tCjrOMC8fIGBFwql.RemoveThis@dmanby.demon.co.uk, Dave Manby at
> > dave.RemoveThis@dmanby.demon.co.uk wrote on 8/10/04 4:31 AM:
>
> > > Statistically lying in bed is by far the most dangerous thing you can do
> > > as the majority of people die in bed!
> >
> > I think perhaps "cause of death" and "location of death" are getting
> > confused here!
> >
> His point exactly, gaving a very good example of how faulty cause-and-effect
> reasoning can lead to invalid conclusions.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: actual deaths in kayaks |
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External
Since: May 27, 2004
Posts: 18
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:31 pm
Post subject: Re: actual deaths in kayaks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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One often hears statistics such as deaths from scuba diving being
approximately equal to mowing lawns. Are these statistics based on the
population that regularly engages in these activities or the total
population?
Obviously if one does not scuba dive their risk of dying from this
activity is zero. So using the total population to calculate the death
rate for activities practiced by a very small proportion of the
population would depress those rates tremendously.
"Don Freeman" <freemand.REMOVE.RemoveThis@sonic.net> wrote in message news:<bNcSc.6786$54.105406@typhoon.sonic.net>...
> "Keenan Wellar" <gokayakingdotca.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:BD3EC1B7.ADE2%gokayakingdotca@hotmail.com...
> > in article tCjrOMC8fIGBFwql.RemoveThis@dmanby.demon.co.uk, Dave Manby at
> > dave.RemoveThis@dmanby.demon.co.uk wrote on 8/10/04 4:31 AM:
>
> > > Statistically lying in bed is by far the most dangerous thing you can do
> > > as the majority of people die in bed!
> >
> > I think perhaps "cause of death" and "location of death" are getting
> > confused here!
> >
> His point exactly, gaving a very good example of how faulty cause-and-effect
> reasoning can lead to invalid conclusions.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: actual deaths in kayaks |
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External
Since: Jun 25, 2003
Posts: 835
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:21 pm
Post subject: Re: actual deaths in kayaks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Don Freeman" (freemand.REMOVE@sonic.net) writes:
> "Keenan Wellar" <gokayakingdotca.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:BD3EC1B7.ADE2%gokayakingdotca@hotmail.com...
>> in article tCjrOMC8fIGBFwql.RemoveThis@dmanby.demon.co.uk, Dave Manby at
>> dave.RemoveThis@dmanby.demon.co.uk wrote on 8/10/04 4:31 AM:
>
>> > Statistically lying in bed is by far the most dangerous thing you can do
>> > as the majority of people die in bed!
>>
>> I think perhaps "cause of death" and "location of death" are getting
>> confused here!
>>
> His point exactly, gaving a very good example of how faulty cause-and-effect
> reasoning can lead to invalid conclusions.
Are we speculating that the statistics on paddling deaths are actually
statistics on in-kayak cardiac arrests, strokes, aneruisms, chokings, and
drug overdoses?
There's a subject line I'd like to see in this newsgroup. Kayaker dies of drug
overdose in Big Hole on Middle Fork of Upper Zipissippi.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: actual deaths in kayaks |
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External
Since: Aug 11, 2004
Posts: 11
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:35 pm
Post subject: Re: actual deaths in kayaks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"William R. Watt" <ag384.DeleteThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:cfd315$irr$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
>
> "Don Freeman" (freemand.REMOVE@sonic.net) writes:
> > "Keenan Wellar" <gokayakingdotca.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:BD3EC1B7.ADE2%gokayakingdotca@hotmail.com...
> >> in article tCjrOMC8fIGBFwql.DeleteThis@dmanby.demon.co.uk, Dave Manby at
> >> dave.DeleteThis@dmanby.demon.co.uk wrote on 8/10/04 4:31 AM:
> >
> >> > Statistically lying in bed is by far the most dangerous thing you can
do
> >> > as the majority of people die in bed!
> >>
> >> I think perhaps "cause of death" and "location of death" are getting
> >> confused here!
> >>
> > His point exactly, gaving a very good example of how faulty
cause-and-effect
> > reasoning can lead to invalid conclusions.
>
> Are we speculating that the statistics on paddling deaths are actually
> statistics on in-kayak cardiac arrests, strokes, aneruisms, chokings, and
> drug overdoses?
>
> There's a subject line I'd like to see in this newsgroup. Kayaker dies of
drug
> overdose in Big Hole on Middle Fork of Upper Zipissippi.
I believe there was a fella in this area who had a heart attack while in his
kayak...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: actual deaths in kayaks |
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External
Since: Jul 23, 2004
Posts: 12
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:25 pm
Post subject: Re: actual deaths in kayaks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"William R. Watt" <ag384 DeleteThis @FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:cfd315$irr$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
> Are we speculating that the statistics on paddling deaths are actually
> statistics on in-kayak cardiac arrests, strokes, aneruisms, chokings, and
> drug overdoses?
You forgot mutilations by alien UFOs.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: actual deaths in kayaks |
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External
Since: Jul 23, 2004
Posts: 12
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:55 pm
Post subject: Re: actual deaths in kayaks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Alex Horvath" <alexh1 RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:ab2306ad.0408110931.549bd0d4@posting.google.com...
> One often hears statistics such as deaths from scuba diving being
> approximately equal to mowing lawns. Are these statistics based on the
> population that regularly engages in these activities or the total
> population?
If the person making the comparison didn't qualify the quoted statistic, and
cite the source, it is pretty much meaningless. Most of what you hear
otherwise may even qualify as urban legends.
IE: donkeys more dangerous then airplanes:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/donkey.htm" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/donkey.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: actual deaths in kayaks |
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External
Since: Jun 25, 2003
Posts: 835
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: actual deaths in kayaks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Alex Horvath (alexh1@sbcglobal.net) writes:
> One often hears statistics such as deaths from scuba diving being
> approximately equal to mowing lawns. Are these statistics based on the
> population that regularly engages in these activities or the total
> population?
>
> Obviously if one does not scuba dive their risk of dying from this
> activity is zero. So using the total population to calculate the death
> rate for activities practiced by a very small proportion of the
> population would depress those rates tremendously.
It might explain why my former neighbour never mowed his lawn.
On the alien UFO cause, since in the USA all non-citizens are officially
"aliens" and non-citizens do paddle there, there must be some non-negative
probability of a kayker in the USA being killed by one. How much white
does there have to be in white water before a kayak is considered airborne?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: actual deaths in kayaks |
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External
Since: Jul 23, 2004
Posts: 12
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:05 pm
Post subject: Re: actual deaths in kayaks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"William R. Watt" <ag384.DeleteThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:cfdqdo$jpp$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
>
>
> On the alien UFO cause, since in the USA all non-citizens are officially
> "aliens" and non-citizens do paddle there, there must be some non-negative
> probability of a kayker in the USA being killed by one. How much white
> does there have to be in white water before a kayak is considered
airborne?
>
And considering the shape of some whitewater boats I've seen they could
definitely qualify as unidentifiable.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: actual deaths in kayaks |
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External
Since: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 86
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:29 am
Post subject: Re: actual deaths in kayaks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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85% of statistics are made up.
Source UK Guinness Television advert advertisement.
(I guess you would have to see the ad. to know that the ad was made up
of statistics all of which were dubious)
In message <b4tSc.6910$54.106976@typhoon.sonic.net>, Don Freeman
<freemand.REMOVE.RemoveThis@sonic.net> writes
>
>"Alex Horvath" <alexh1.RemoveThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>news:ab2306ad.0408110931.549bd0d4@posting.google.com...
>> One often hears statistics such as deaths from scuba diving being
>> approximately equal to mowing lawns. Are these statistics based on the
>> population that regularly engages in these activities or the total
>> population?
>
>If the person making the comparison didn't qualify the quoted statistic, and
>cite the source, it is pretty much meaningless. Most of what you hear
>otherwise may even qualify as urban legends.
>
>IE: donkeys more dangerous then airplanes:
>http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/donkey.htm
>
>
--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk" target="_blank">http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: actual deaths in kayaks |
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External
Since: Jun 25, 2003
Posts: 835
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:00 pm
Post subject: Re: actual deaths in kayaks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Dave Manby (dave@dmanby.demon.co.uk) writes:
> 85% of statistics are made up.
by defintion 100% of statistics are made up.
a statistic is not the data but a number computed from the data.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: actual deaths in kayaks |
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