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Gil Turner

External


Since: Sep 01, 2003
Posts: 1



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 7:08 pm
Post subject: World's Safest Whitewater Helmet
Archived from groups: rec>boats>paddle (more info?)

Whitewater Research & Safety Institute, Inc.
4066 Worthington Drive
Park City, UT 84098

NEWS RELEASE

Contact: Gil Turner
  gilrtrnr DeleteThis @aol.com
Release Date: Mon. 11 Aug. 2003


FAMILY TRAGEDY RESULTS IN "WORLD'S SAFEST WHITEWATER HELMET"

At 22 years of age, Lucas Turner of Park City, Utah, was a seasoned
veteran of the extreme sport of whitewater kayaking. As an avowed
environmentalist and staff member of the Southern Utah Wilderness
Alliance, he became an integral part of in their wilderness
reinventory and lobby efforts.
While an admitted thrill seeker in back country skiing and kayaking,
he was neither careless nor reckless. As he double checked his helmet
strap before launching his small boat into the roiling waters of
Idaho's North Fork of the Payette River in July 1998, Lucas had no way
of knowing this would be his last whitewater adventure. In fact, it
was to be the last day of his life. That helmet he so carefully
secured before shoving off into the boulder- strewn rapids was fatally
flawed. A fact that became tragically apparent when he became
inverted in the raging current of a rapid known as "Jacob's Ladder."
For an expert "boater" like Lucas, that was not especially dangerous.
He could easily bring his kayak upright again using a maneuver called
the Eskimo roll. But as his head and upper body plunged into the
violent waters, the forcesof the dangerous rapids pulled his tightly
strapped helmet back, exposing his forehead. A fraction of a second
later, Lucas slammed head first into a submerged boulder. The blow
killed him instantly. Had his helmet stayed in place, there is a very
good chance Lucas would have survived the impact.
His death stunned his close-knit family. It outraged them as well.
Lucas's father, Gil, wondered why his son's helmet had failed so
completely. He went looking for answers and what he found was
shocking. There were no industry or government standards for
whitewater sport helmets. Even more astounding, not a single helmet
sold for use in the whitewater environment had been specifically
designed, developed, nor tested for this extreme water sport! Most
were so-called "cross-overs," helmets originally designed for inline
skaters, bmx riders skier, and other sports where a helmet is prudent.
While they might afford a good level of protection on dry land or the
ski slopes, they were far out of their element in the extreme
whitewater environment that requires a helmet to provide "multiple
impact" protection and remain tightly secured on top of the head.
Gil Turner intended to do more than mourn his son's death; he decided
to use it as the starting point for some meaningful and necessary
change. He retired from a 25-year commercial real estate career to
devote full time and all of his resources to develop a safer helmet. A
helmet for whitewater sports that would provide more than a false
sense of security became what some would call an "Obsession" for him.
Turner founded the Whitewater Research and Safety Institute with the
intent to develop a safer helmet, and in doing so, develop the first
helmet that would be subjected to the hydraulic forces and potential
blunt head trauma injury potential in the whitewater environment.
From this he could also develop the first whitewater helmet standard
from the results of the necessary impact testing. For the next three
and a half years Gil Turner and his younger son Nick, a civil engineer
graduate of Montana State University, and a well-known expert
whitewater kayaker, dedicated much of their lives to that effort. The
results are nothing short of remarkable. With knowledgeable
perseverance the Turners got Johns Hopkins University interested in
the problem.
Their World Renowned Bloomberg School of Public Health co-sponsored
the project with Whitewater Research & Safety Institute, and set two
of their brightest mechanical engineering students to work designing a
true whitewater helmet. The project was completed in May 2002, and can
be viewed in detail at
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.jhu.edu/news_info/news/home02/may02/helmet.html." target="_blank">http://www.jhu.edu/news_info/news/home02/may02/helmet.html.</a>
After a year's effort, engineering students Michael Cordeiro and Chang
Lee produced a helmet that not only could absorb significant multiple
impacts, but would stay firmly in place when hit with the powerful
hydraulic forces created in the whitewater environment. They tested
the helmet's revolutionary retention system by strapping it to a head
form and blasting it with a high-powered stream of water from a fire
hose at 42 mph. To measure it's impact resistance to dangerous blunt
head trauma forces, they measured it against the 6 most popular
helmets currently being sold for use in whitewater sports. Under the
tuteledge of Dr. Andrew Conn, senior ME lecturer at JHU, the results
they obtained using an impact measuring machine they designed and
constructed themselves surprised even them. The new WWHIP (WhiteWater
Head Impact Protection) Project helmet prototype sustained g forces to
the head of sometimes less than 20% of those forces transmitted to the
head using the inferior helmets currently being sold for whitewater
use.
The new helmet will also be inexpensive to manufacture. Consisting of
a lexan shell and multiple layers of water resistant EVA foam, it is
expected to sell for less than $50 per helmet, with the outfitters and
whitewater sporting good stores receiving huge discounts to make it
readily and easily available for the 2004 boating season. Reflex
Engineering of Bountiful, Utah is the primary engineer, and with
Whitewater Research & Safety Institute created the Whitewater
Technology Corp, and have moved to make this breakthrough head
protection available to the public. Prototypes of the "World's Safest
Whitewater Helmet" will be featured at this year's Outdoor Retailer
Show beginning August 14-17.
Pre-production orders will be taken from outfitters and retailers at
the ORS,and by early nextyear, just in time for the 2004 boating
season, the remarkable new and safer helmet will be available on-line.
The Institute has developed a unique and attractive website through
Extreme Business Solutions,
Inc. <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.whitewaterhelmet.com" target="_blank">www.whitewaterhelmet.com</a> along with a huge e-mail database
consisting exclusively of members of the whitewater community. The
Institute's Mission is "To promote whitewater recreation safety and
save lives by disseminating knowledge and improving equipment. Gil
Turner knows it will save lives and reduce the serious head injuries
now being suffered in Whitewater Recreation Activities. Currently
there are 32 million whitewater enthusiasts in the United States
alone. Research conducted by The Institute indicates at least
one-third of all fatal accidents in the sport are the result of blunt
head trauma forces that can incapacitate a boater and lead to injury
or death. In particular, The Institute has independently issued a
"Voluntary Recall Demand" for the Protec Full-Cut Helmet that is
particularly dangerous due to it's lack of an adequate retention
system. It does not prevent the helmet from rotating backwards,
thereby exposing the forehead to the dangers in the whitewater
environment, and has resulted in numerous documented severe head
injuries.
Increasing the danger, new smaller, more maneuverable watercraft are
now attracting many boaters to smaller creeks and rivers, where rocky
obstacles are harder to avoid and the risk of head injury is all that
much greater. While whitewater boating can never be risk free, those
looking for adventure on the wild waters may soon be facing far less
danger, thanks to a family that refused to see only loss in a personal
tragedy. Thanks to a father who wanted meaningful answers. Thanks to
a young man whose last day on the river was the beginning of something
of real value; a gift of greater safety to many he will never know.
Those who will come after him, down the twisting, thundering path of
the whitewater will be able to rely on a helmet that will provide far
greater protection in this extreme, dangerous, but rapidly growing
sport.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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Mary Malmros

External


Since: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 82



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:30 am
Post subject: Re: World's Safest Whitewater Helmet [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I'm not gonna order anything I can't try first. I got a long haid;
round-haid helmets don't fit me worth a damn...and, frankly, IME
fit's a lot more important than all them fancy materials.

--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros malmros.TakeThisOut@shore.net
   Some days you're the windshield,
   Other days you're the bug.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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Brian Nystrom

External


Since: Jun 26, 2003
Posts: 289



(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:30 pm
Post subject: Re: World's Safest Whitewater Helmet [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Gil Turner wrote:

 > <shamless self-promotion snipped>

This is apparently nothing but one man's crusade against Pro-Tec. I'm
sorry his son was killed, but the fact that he chose a helmet that didn't
fit his head properly doesn't make the product defective. I have one that
stays on and in place just fine. As Mary points out, people's heads are
shaped differently and no single helmet is going to fit everyone
perfectly. Apparently, the two college kids who designed this new helmet
didn't reseach that aspect very thoroughly. Billing this unavailable
product as the "World's Safest Whitewater Helmet" is a bad joke, bordering
on disingenuous. The psuedo-official sounding business name "Whitewater
Research & Safety Institute, Inc." and the BS about issuing a "Voluntary
Recall Demand" is even more misleading.

If the product comes to market and it provides good protection for the
people it fits, so much the better. However, this marketing strategy isn't
fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different
approach.

I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets.

--
Regards

Brian Nystrom
President, CEO and Grand Pubah
The Institute for Exposing Personal Vendettas Disguised as Official
Agencies<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Charles Pezeshki1

External


Since: Aug 14, 2003
Posts: 9



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:14 pm
Post subject: Re: World's Safest Whitewater Helmet [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Hi Brian,

I knew the group that was paddling with Lucas, and was really saddened to
hear about his death five years ago. He died in a rapid that is one of the
biggest 'mainstream' Class Vs in the world, and one that I have always
carried.

It's unfortunate that you're insulting his dad. I've talked in the past
about how whitewater helmets need to be improved, but though I do possess
the technical ability to do such a project, I haven't. I'm glad to see Gil
doing it. Looks to me from the pictures on the website that he's addressed
major areas of concern that I have-- notably full protection for the base of
the brain that's lacking on almost all of the current crop.

Chuck

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.wildcountry.info" target="_blank">http://www.wildcountry.info</a>

in article 3F548038.65056540 RemoveThis @att.net, Brian Nystrom at brian.nystrom RemoveThis @att.net
wrote on 9/2/03 4:30 AM:

 > This is apparently nothing but one man's crusade against Pro-Tec. I'm
 > sorry his son was killed, but the fact that he chose a helmet that didn't
 > fit his head properly doesn't make the product defective. I have one that
 > stays on and in place just fine. As Mary points out, people's heads are
 > shaped differently and no single helmet is going to fit everyone
 > perfectly. Apparently, the two college kids who designed this new helmet
 > didn't reseach that aspect very thoroughly. Billing this unavailable
 > product as the "World's Safest Whitewater Helmet" is a bad joke, bordering
 > on disingenuous. The psuedo-official sounding business name "Whitewater
 > Research & Safety Institute, Inc." and the BS about issuing a "Voluntary
 > Recall Demand" is even more misleading.
 >
 > If the product comes to market and it provides good protection for the
 > people it fits, so much the better. However, this marketing strategy isn't
 > fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different
 > approach.
 >
 > I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Wilko1

External


Since: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 36



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:11 pm
Post subject: Re: World's Safest Whitewater Helmet [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Gil Turner wrote:
 > Those who will come after him, down the twisting, thundering path of
 > the whitewater will be able to rely on a helmet that will provide far
 > greater protection in this extreme, dangerous, but rapidly growing
 > sport.

I'm sorry to hear about your son's death. That's an interesting motive
for designing a safer white water helmet, one that I can only applaud.
However, I do have some critical notes with this article...

I'm not at all impresssed by claims to be the world's best or safest,
but I am interested to hear how this claim is substantiated. Has this
helmet been compared to other purpose designed white water helmets in
comparatice tests?

I also find several lines in this article misleading or just plainly
wrong. For example, there were at that time (1998) and have been since
several purpose designed white water helmets on the market, from a
couple of brands all over the world. Granted, some are offering better
protection than others, but that's not what the article seems to imply.

On top of that I find the general tone of the article annoying. What
exactly is so extreme and dangerous about this sport?

There are already good products out on the market to protect yourself
against blows to the head and body, from a number of companies. That
said, there will always be a certain risk involved with paddling
whitewater (or any water for that matter).

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko.DeleteThis@dse.nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wilko.webzone.ru/" target="_blank">http://wilko.webzone.ru/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Paddlec1

External


Since: Aug 03, 2003
Posts: 39



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:54 pm
Post subject: Re: World's Safest Whitewater Helmet [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Brian Nystrom posted:

snip
 > this marketing strategy isn't
 >fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different
 >approach.
 >
 >I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets.
 >
 >--
 >Regards
 >
 >Brian Nystrom
 >President, CEO and Grand Pubah
 >The Institute for Exposing Personal Vendettas Disguised as Official
 >Agencies

This may or may not be the worlds safest whitewater helmet, but any helmet that
stays in place (which Protec does not), provides protection from impact (which
Protec does not), and is designed for whitewater (which Protec is not) is
welcome in the paddling community.

Mr. Nystrom, I am totally disgusted by your jumping in to troll a thread of
this kind. If you had a shred of self respect you would restrain yourself this
one time. You would do well to seek professional help for your low self esteem.

Get some therapy.

Dennis<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Larry Cable

External


Since: Jun 25, 2003
Posts: 63



(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:02 am
Post subject: Re: World's Safest Whitewater Helmet [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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 > paddlec1.DeleteThis@aol.com (Paddlec1)

Typed in >Message-ID: <20030902145430.16430.00000383.DeleteThis@mb-m02.aol.com>

 >This may or may not be the worlds safest whitewater helmet, but any helmet
 >that
 >stays in place (which Protec does not), provides protection from impact
 >(which
 >Protec does not), and is designed for whitewater (which Protec is not) is
 >welcome in the paddling

 >community.
 >
 >

I have to agree with Brian on this one. While I'm not of the opinion that
Protec is the ultimate in head protection, it works OK and has protected many a
head from injury, including mine. Mine does fit and it has provided impact
protection. Could it be better? Yes, of course it could.

I read the stuff and looked at the photos of the original prototype helmet,
truthfully, it looked like a mountain biking helmet to me. There are and have
been for many years better helmets for Class IV/V water,
Cascade and Seda come to mind. I not very convinced that they are bringing
anything new to the game.


SYOTR
Larry C.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Brian Nystrom

External


Since: Jun 26, 2003
Posts: 289



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:21 am
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Paddlec1 wrote:

 > Brian Nystrom posted:
 >
 > snip
  > > this marketing strategy isn't
  > >fooling anyone and Mr. Turner would do well to consider a different
  > >approach.
  > >
  > >I truly hope Mr. Turner isn't going to become the Tim Ingram of helmets.
  > >
  > >--
  > >Regards
  > >
  > >Brian Nystrom
  > >President, CEO and Grand Pubah
  > >The Institute for Exposing Personal Vendettas Disguised as Official
  > >Agencies
 >
 > This may or may not be the worlds safest whitewater helmet, but any helmet that
 > stays in place (which Protec does not),

Nonsense. It may not fit your head, but it fits mine fine and apparently does so
for others here, too.

 > provides protection from impact (which
 > Protec does not),

More nonsense. It may not be the most protective helmet on the market, but mine has
done the job for many years in several different activities (cycling, climbing,
paddling). While it carries a fair number of external scars, the shell is intact
and the padding is still resilient.

 > and is designed for whitewater (which Protec is not)

Well, you're three for three with the nonsense. The fact that the basic Protec
helmet design is adaptable to many uses is a strength, not a vice.

 >
 > is welcome in the paddling community.

Sure and I said as much.

 > Mr. Nystrom, I am totally disgusted by your jumping in to troll a thread of
 > this kind.

Troll nothing. I call it as I see it and this is a pretty clear call. I truly hope
that this turns out to be a useful product, but the marketing approach they've
taken is blatantly misleading. If you can't see this, then order one and see what
happens.

 > <whiney crap snipped>

Get a grip.

--
Regards

Brian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Ed Edelenbos

External


Since: Jun 24, 2003
Posts: 49



(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:21 am
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The best helmet would be one with a pair of sponsons....


Ed

(ok, ok... I know. I just couldn't resist. grin )
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Brian Nystrom

External


Since: Jun 26, 2003
Posts: 289



(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:21 am
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Charles Pezeshki wrote:

 > Hi Brian,
 >
 > I knew the group that was paddling with Lucas, and was really saddened to
 > hear about his death five years ago. He died in a rapid that is one of the
 > biggest 'mainstream' Class Vs in the world, and one that I have always
 > carried.
 >
 > It's unfortunate that you're insulting his dad.

I'm not insulting anyone. For that matter, I'm not questioning his motives,
either. What I am questioning is his approach. His words clearly express a
personal vendetta against Protec. I can't say I fully understand his grief or
claim that I would feel any differently were I in his position. However, I
strongly object to his misleading claim of the "Worlds Safest Whitewater Helmet"
and the attempt to pass off a business as some form of "official" safety agency.

 > I've talked in the past
 > about how whitewater helmets need to be improved, but though I do possess
 > the technical ability to do such a project, I haven't. I'm glad to see Gil
 > doing it.

If his company ultimately produces a good product, I'm all for it. However, a
good product deserves to be marketed honestly on it's merits, not by bitter
attacks on a competing product. This kind of approach will ultimately backfire
and could prevent his product from saving a life. I'm sure that's not Mr.
Turner's intent.

 > Looks to me from the pictures on the website that he's addressed
 > major areas of concern that I have-- notably full protection for the base of
 > the brain that's lacking on almost all of the current crop.

Interesting. Research on helmets for other applications has shown that close
fitting padding at the lower rear of a helmet causes an increase in broken necks
when impacts that cause head rotation occur (ie., frontal impacts or glancing
impacts to the top of the helmet...sound familiar?). That's why helmets for
other applications are not made that way. A closer fit does not necessarily make
a helmet safer. If the helmet itself causes or exacerbates injury, the users
could be at greater risk than they would be with a design that seems less
protective, but won't contribute to injuries.

I really have to question whether designing a whitewater helmet that may
actually make it to market is a suitable project for a couple of college kids.
I'm getting the impression that they just haven't done all the necessary
research. This sounds like a project that should be taken up with the assistance
of Snell Labs and other organizations which have researched head injuries
in-depth. Again, I'm not questioning their motivation, it just seems like they
may have overlooked some critical details.

--
Regards

Brian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Mary Malmros

External


Since: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 82



(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:52 am
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lrcable.TakeThisOut@aol.comnospam (Larry Cable) writes:

  > > paddlec1.TakeThisOut@aol.com (Paddlec1)
 >
 > Typed in >Message-ID: <20030902145430.16430.00000383.TakeThisOut@mb-m02.aol.com>
 >
  > >This may or may not be the worlds safest whitewater helmet, but any helmet
  > >that
  > >stays in place (which Protec does not), provides protection from impact
  > >(which
  > >Protec does not), and is designed for whitewater (which Protec is not) is
  > >welcome in the paddling
 >
  > >community.
  > >
  > >
 >
 > I have to agree with Brian on this one. While I'm not of the opinion that
 > Protec is the ultimate in head protection, it works OK and has protected many a
 > head from injury, including mine. Mine does fit and it has provided impact
 > protection. Could it be better? Yes, of course it could.

Well, Protec's been through a few changes. Current Protec helmets
have a two-point strap attachment, but a few years back, that wasn't
so. Anecdotally, it seems the change in the strap has made a real
difference in how well the helmet stays in place -- and there are
still a lot of one-strap Protecs out there.


--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros malmros.TakeThisOut@shore.net
   Some days you're the windshield,
   Other days you're the bug.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Dave Manby

External


Since: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 86



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:06 am
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OK I tried to avoid this one!

I am for my sins the chair of the BCU safety committee and several years
ago the committee sent all the helmet on the market to the road research
testing lab at Birmingham Uni. OK they usually test motor bike helmets.
The guy from the research department came and presented his findings.

The Protec helmet was in those days the best of a pretty poor bunch was
his summary. In fact he refused to test one as they reckoned the lack of
resistance would damage their machine!

Couple of interesting points he made was the very real cocoon effect
that wearing a helmet has. You are likely to try and paddle harder /
drive faster because of this effect the helmet has. And Brian if your
helmet bears the scars of previous battles with rocks you should throw
it away and buy a new one as it WILL not be as strong as it was. (No
matter what it is made of) If you crash your motor bike your helmet is
toast but you may well not be toast because of it!

In message <3F5550E1.983237E1.DeleteThis@att.net>, Brian Nystrom
<brian.nystrom.DeleteThis@att.net> writes
 >
 >
 >Charles Pezeshki wrote:
 >
  >> Hi Brian,
  >>
  >> I knew the group that was paddling with Lucas, and was really saddened to
  >> hear about his death five years ago. He died in a rapid that is one of the
  >> biggest 'mainstream' Class Vs in the world, and one that I have always
  >> carried.
  >>
  >> It's unfortunate that you're insulting his dad.
 >
 >I'm not insulting anyone. For that matter, I'm not questioning his motives,
 >either. What I am questioning is his approach. His words clearly express a
 >personal vendetta against Protec. I can't say I fully understand his grief or
 >claim that I would feel any differently were I in his position. However, I
 >strongly object to his misleading claim of the "Worlds Safest
 >Whitewater Helmet"
 >and the attempt to pass off a business as some form of "official"
 >safety agency.
 >
  >> I've talked in the past
  >> about how whitewater helmets need to be improved, but though I do possess
  >> the technical ability to do such a project, I haven't. I'm glad to see Gil
  >> doing it.
 >
 >If his company ultimately produces a good product, I'm all for it. However, a
 >good product deserves to be marketed honestly on it's merits, not by bitter
 >attacks on a competing product. This kind of approach will ultimately backfire
 >and could prevent his product from saving a life. I'm sure that's not Mr.
 >Turner's intent.
 >
  >> Looks to me from the pictures on the website that he's addressed
  >> major areas of concern that I have-- notably full protection for the base of
  >> the brain that's lacking on almost all of the current crop.
 >
 >Interesting. Research on helmets for other applications has shown that close
 >fitting padding at the lower rear of a helmet causes an increase in
 >broken necks
 >when impacts that cause head rotation occur (ie., frontal impacts or glancing
 >impacts to the top of the helmet...sound familiar?). That's why helmets for
 >other applications are not made that way. A closer fit does not
 >necessarily make
 >a helmet safer. If the helmet itself causes or exacerbates injury, the users
 >could be at greater risk than they would be with a design that seems less
 >protective, but won't contribute to injuries.
 >
 >I really have to question whether designing a whitewater helmet that may
 >actually make it to market is a suitable project for a couple of college kids.
 >I'm getting the impression that they just haven't done all the necessary
 >research. This sounds like a project that should be taken up with the
 >assistance
 >of Snell Labs and other organizations which have researched head injuries
 >in-depth. Again, I'm not questioning their motivation, it just seems like they
 >may have overlooked some critical details.
 >
 >--
 >Regards
 >
 >Brian
 >
 >

--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk" target="_blank">http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Brian Nystrom

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Since: Jun 26, 2003
Posts: 289



(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:32 pm
Post subject: Re: World's Safest Whitewater Helmet [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Dave Manby wrote:

 > OK I tried to avoid this one!

Thanks for jumping in; your insight is appreciated.

 > I am for my sins the chair of the BCU safety committee and several years
 > ago the committee sent all the helmet on the market to the road research
 > testing lab at Birmingham Uni. OK they usually test motor bike helmets.
 > The guy from the research department came and presented his findings.
 >
 > The Protec helmet was in those days the best of a pretty poor bunch was
 > his summary. In fact he refused to test one as they reckoned the lack of
 > resistance would damage their machine!

That's not terribly surprising, considering what they're used to testing. I guess
it comes down to what level of protection one expects. If you want motorcycle level
protection, you'll have to deal with the same weight and bulk. Realistically, what
paddling helmets primarily protect against are cuts, abrasions and contusions. The
shock absoption may also reduce concussions. However, they're not going to save
someone from a severe impact. That's another gripe I have about Mr. Turner's
claims; he presents no evidence that his son's accident was survivable had he been
wearing a helmet that protected him better. It seems that a big assumption is being
made.

 > Couple of interesting points he made was the very real cocoon effect
 > that wearing a helmet has. You are likely to try and paddle harder /
 > drive faster because of this effect the helmet has.

It seems that it's a "chicken or the egg" argument. Helmets are bought for
protection during activities where head injury is possible. Would we engage in the
activity without a helmet?

I use mine primarily for playing in surf and rocks. All I expect of it is to keep
me from bleeding and perhaps save me a lump on the head if I whack a rock
inadvertently. However, with the forces involved with moving water, I know that
it's not going to save my life if I do something stupid or get caught off-guard.

 > And Brian if your
 > helmet bears the scars of previous battles with rocks you should throw
 > it away and buy a new one as it WILL not be as strong as it was. (No
 > matter what it is made of)

I appreciate your concern, but the damage is purely superficial. I've never taken
any serious whacks with on the helmet. It's a multi impact helmet, anyway.

 > If you crash your motor bike your helmet is
 > toast but you may well not be toast because of it!

That's the idea. Motorcycle helmets (and cycling helmets) are sacrificial items.
One impact and the helmet is destroyed, but it has done it's job. In the trash it
goes. This provides a relatively high level of protection for a given size and
weight, but is it practical/acceptable for a sport where multiple impacts can
reasonably be expected? I guess that would come down to a personal choice.

--
Regards

Brian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Phat Ratty Ratt

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Since: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 11



(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:35 pm
Post subject: Re: World's Safest Whitewater Helmet [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Brian Nystrom brian.nystrom DeleteThis @att.net writ, in part:

 >I really have to question whether designing a whitewater helmet that
 >may actually make it to market is a suitable project for a couple of
 >college kids.
 >I'm getting the impression that they just haven't done all the necessary
 >research. This sounds like a project that should be taken up with the
 >assistance of Snell Labs and other organizations which have
 >researched head injuries in-depth. Again, I'm not questioning their
 >motivation, it just seems like they
 >may have overlooked some critical details.

Brian, I believe you've hit the nail on the helmet.

That was kinda what I thought when I saw their video a year or two ago. The
video showed two grinning college kids and one test (taking a fire hose to a
mounted helmet)...and, if memory serves, that was about it.

Generally, the "World's Best" of a product is the result of a substantial
effort. It can be a team of researchers with bunches of ideas, or just one with
an antiparadigmatic insight. Butt under any circumstances, it would involve
significant time, with extensive testing of all competitors' products under a
variety of conditions. It's impossible--imPOSSible!!--to do that with two
college kids, one semester, and a $50,000-dollar grant.

If they were claiming "World's Best Handpaddles," I'd ignore it, because who
cares? But this is a critical piece of safety equipment. Under these
circumstances, with all due respect and sympathy for Mr. Turner's grief and his
subsequent efforts, I agree with you that his approach is irresponsibly
misguided.

Riviera Ratt, PITA
STILL Swimless in the 3rd Millennium! (almost)
Click of the Week updated 8/12/03
For A Good Time, call <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.americanwhitewater.org" target="_blank">http://www.americanwhitewater.org</a>
and <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://members.aol.com/rivieraratt/ratthole.html" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/rivieraratt/ratthole.html</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Brian Nystrom

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Since: Jun 26, 2003
Posts: 289



(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:34 pm
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Amen to that.

Phat Ratty Ratt wrote:

 > Brian Nystrom brian.nystrom.TakeThisOut@att.net writ, in part:
 >
  > >I really have to question whether designing a whitewater helmet that
  > >may actually make it to market is a suitable project for a couple of
  > >college kids.
  > >I'm getting the impression that they just haven't done all the necessary
  > >research. This sounds like a project that should be taken up with the
  > >assistance of Snell Labs and other organizations which have
  > >researched head injuries in-depth. Again, I'm not questioning their
  > >motivation, it just seems like they
  > >may have overlooked some critical details.
 >
 > Brian, I believe you've hit the nail on the helmet.
 >
 > That was kinda what I thought when I saw their video a year or two ago. The
 > video showed two grinning college kids and one test (taking a fire hose to a
 > mounted helmet)...and, if memory serves, that was about it.
 >
 > Generally, the "World's Best" of a product is the result of a substantial
 > effort. It can be a team of researchers with bunches of ideas, or just one with
 > an antiparadigmatic insight. Butt under any circumstances, it would involve
 > significant time, with extensive testing of all competitors' products under a
 > variety of conditions. It's impossible--imPOSSible!!--to do that with two
 > college kids, one semester, and a $50,000-dollar grant.
 >
 > If they were claiming "World's Best Handpaddles," I'd ignore it, because who
 > cares? But this is a critical piece of safety equipment. Under these
 > circumstances, with all due respect and sympathy for Mr. Turner's grief and his
 > subsequent efforts, I agree with you that his approach is irresponsibly
 > misguided.
 >
 > Riviera Ratt, PITA
 > STILL Swimless in the 3rd Millennium! (almost)
 > Click of the Week updated 8/12/03
<font color=purple> > For A Good Time, call <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.americanwhitewater.org</font" target="_blank">http://www.americanwhitewater.org</font</a>>
<font color=purple> > and <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://members.aol.com/rivieraratt/ratthole.html</font" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/rivieraratt/ratthole.html</font</a>>

--
Regards

Brian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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