Wetsuits vs. drysuits

doug m <T.RemoveThis@rcn.com> writes:

 > I own both and have used both for a number of years. My question is:
 > "Was the drysuit necessary, or did I fall for the 'sports marketing' hype?"
 >
 > Have not resolved the question in my own mind yet.
 >
 > When I was paddling white water boats, I used a full wetsuit and took
 > many swims in icy Adirondack rivers just after break-up. According to
 > drysuit proponents, wetsuits are not "good enough" protection for 32-34
 > degree water, and yet I'm still here and don't recall being especially
 > uncomfortable in wetsuit during these adventures.

Well, not everyone thermoregulates the same. Perhaps more to the
point, your ability to thermoregulate isn't always the same as it
was some other time. First time I ever went whitewater kayaking was
December 20, in Massachusetts, I wore a wetsuit, AND I swam...but I
also was pretty amped by the whole situation, so who knows?

When people come on this or any other forum and ask questions like,
"Do I really need a x?" or "Which y is right for meeee???", they are
asking something that they themselves can only answer, through trial
and error. But they want information, so people try to give it to
them, and generally, they give conservative advice. Nothing wrong
with that.

Were you a victim of marketing hype? I have no idea. Did you read
a lot of ads saying, "You better get a drysuit OR YOU'LL DIE!!!"?
If the answer is yes, then perhaps you are. If the answer is more
like, "No, I asked a bunch of paddlers and that was the advice I
got," then you're the victim of nothing...except, perhaps, a
beginner's understandable desire to take a shortcut in figuring out
which x is right for them.

--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros malmros.RemoveThis@shore.net
   Some days you're the windshield,
   Other days you're the bug.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Wetsuits vs. drysuits 

Mary Malmros wrote:

 >
 >
 >except, perhaps, a
 >beginner's understandable desire to take a shortcut in figuring out
 >which x is right for them.
 >
 >
 >
"beginner?" bit of an asumption here. started paddling my parents
touring kayak in the late 1960's (venerable Foldboat). white water
canoe, kayak, and rafting in the 70's and early 80's (first wetsuit
purchased 1971). taught white water kayaking in college as a credit
class. my first touring kayak purchased 1984 and first dry suit
purchased ~ 1987 for use on Alaska trips. if you think this is a
beginner taking a short cut, then we can compare resumes.

back to the original question...

has anyone seen documented fatalities attributable to hypothermia for a
properly fitted wetsuit or drysuit used in canoeing, rafting or kayaking?

thinking about the question further, surfers in New England use wetsuits
nearly exclusively. i don't think i've ever noted a drysuit used by a
surfer. they spend hours in the water at cold temperatures and require
quick reflexes and great coordination. it would appear that wetsuits
offer these users the protection they need.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Wetsuits vs. drysuits 

doug m <T.RemoveThis@rcn.com> wrote:
 >
 > I own both and have used both for a number of years. My question is:
 > "Was the drysuit necessary, or did I fall for the 'sports marketing' hype?"

You fell for sports marketing hype. Note how the drysuit costs more,
is less durable, and more prone to catastrophic failure.

The only problem with a wetsuit is that, in heavy cold rain, the layer
of warm water next to your skin gets replaced too quickly to rewarm.
However this problem can be mitigated by wearing drypants, at much
lower cost than a drysuit.

What baffles me is the number of drysuits that come with ankle gaskets
instead of integral booties. Unless it keeps your feet dry and warm,
the drysuit's only advantage is that, after boating, you can drive away
without changing clothes.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Wetsuits vs. drysuits 

Bill Tuthill wrote:
 > doug m <T.TakeThisOut@rcn.com> wrote:
 >
  >>I own both and have used both for a number of years. My question is:
  >>"Was the drysuit necessary, or did I fall for the 'sports marketing' hype?"
 >
 > You fell for sports marketing hype. Note how the drysuit costs more,
 > is less durable, and more prone to catastrophic failure.
 >
 > The only problem with a wetsuit is that, in heavy cold rain, the layer
 > of warm water next to your skin gets replaced too quickly to rewarm.
 > However this problem can be mitigated by wearing drypants, at much
 > lower cost than a drysuit.
 >
 > What baffles me is the number of drysuits that come with ankle gaskets
 > instead of integral booties. Unless it keeps your feet dry and warm,
 > the drysuit's only advantage is that, after boating, you can drive away
 > without changing clothes.

Besides the price, one of the things that bothers me about dry suits is
the risk of a gasket tearing, flooding the suit. I've only managed to
rip two wrist gaskets on my (semi-)drytops so far.

I also find that gaskets start to leak slightly after a while, probably
due to them stretching and becoming less tight. With me sweating a lot
during intensive paddling (i.e. playboating), whatever I wear underneath
my dry top tends to become rather moist as well (all of my tops are made
of breathing material, but that doesn't seem to help that much).

I paddle quite a bit in the winter, when it's freezing, as well as
spending some time on glacier melt rivers in the summer. For those
activities my (thick) wetsuits combined with dry top, open palm mittens
and enough layers of polypro have worked rather well so far.
(http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler15.html ,
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler16.html" target="_blank">http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler16.html</a> and
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler19.html" target="_blank">http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler19.html</a>)

Wilko

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko.TakeThisOut@dse.nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wilko.webzone.ru/" target="_blank">http://wilko.webzone.ru/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Wetsuits vs. drysuits 

doug m <T.RemoveThis@rcn.com> writes:

 > Mary Malmros wrote:
 >
  > >
  > >
  > >except, perhaps, a
  > >beginner's understandable desire to take a shortcut in figuring out
  > >which x is right for them.
  > >
  > >
  > >
 > "beginner?" bit of an asumption here. started paddling my
 > parents
[story about how he was paddling in the womb snipped]

Take it easy, take a relax. It's a newbie question, for the most
part: what clothes should I buy. So you weren't a newbie to
paddling...mox nix. You went to buy a drysuit, presumably without
prior experience with 'em that would have allowed you to say, "Yep,
that's what I need." You yourself speculated that you might have
been "the victim of marketing hype", right? So...were you? What
did you base your decision on?
 > back to the original question...
 >
 > has anyone seen documented fatalities attributable to hypothermia for a
 > properly fitted wetsuit or drysuit used in canoeing, rafting or kayaking?

In whitewater, and I expect in calm water too, hypothermia is rarely
the direct cause of death, and it's not something that can show up
on an autopsy like drowning or trauma. I can remember reading
accounts in Charlie Walbridge's safety reports where hypothermia is
listed as a likely contributing factor in a drowning death, but I
doubt you can ever prove that hypothermia was _the_ reason why
someone drowned. But it's a good place to look.

 > thinking about the question further, surfers in New England use wetsuits
 > nearly exclusively. i don't think i've ever noted a drysuit used by a
 > surfer. they spend hours in the water at cold temperatures and require
 > quick reflexes and great coordination. it would appear that wetsuits
 > offer these users the protection they need.

Can't answer that one, since I've never surfed in New England.
Check back with me in a few days -- I'm going surfing on Cape Cod
tomorrow.

--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros malmros.RemoveThis@shore.net
   Some days you're the windshield,
   Other days you're the bug.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Wetsuits vs. drysuits 

Mary Malmros <malmros.DeleteThis@shore.net> wrote:

 > doug m <T.DeleteThis@rcn.com> writes:
 >
  > > Mary Malmros wrote:
  > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >except, perhaps, a
   > > >beginner's understandable desire to take a shortcut in figuring out
   > > >which x is right for them.
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
  > > "beginner?" bit of an asumption here. started paddling my
  > > parents
 > [story about how he was paddling in the womb snipped]
 >
 > Take it easy, take a relax. It's a newbie question, for the most
 > part: what clothes should I buy. So you weren't a newbie to
 > paddling...mox nix. You went to buy a drysuit, presumably without
 > prior experience with 'em that would have allowed you to say, "Yep,
 > that's what I need." You yourself speculated that you might have
 > been "the victim of marketing hype", right? So...were you? What
 > did you base your decision on?
  > > back to the original question...
  > >
  > > has anyone seen documented fatalities attributable to hypothermia for a
  > > properly fitted wetsuit or drysuit used in canoeing, rafting or kayaking?
 >
 > In whitewater, and I expect in calm water too, hypothermia is rarely
 > the direct cause of death, and it's not something that can show up
 > on an autopsy like drowning or trauma. I can remember reading
 > accounts in Charlie Walbridge's safety reports where hypothermia is
 > listed as a likely contributing factor in a drowning death, but I
 > doubt you can ever prove that hypothermia was _the_ reason why
 > someone drowned. But it's a good place to look.
 >
  > > thinking about the question further, surfers in New England use wetsuits
  > > nearly exclusively. i don't think i've ever noted a drysuit used by a
  > > surfer. they spend hours in the water at cold temperatures and require
  > > quick reflexes and great coordination. it would appear that wetsuits
  > > offer these users the protection they need.
 >
 > Can't answer that one, since I've never surfed in New England.
 > Check back with me in a few days -- I'm going surfing on Cape Cod
 > tomorrow.

re the surfers in New England - reflecting on my Windsurfing days. they
were more than likely to be using 'steamers'. These are 'wetsuits' but
all the seams are sealed so water can only enter slowly through the neck
hand and feet openings, the zip is usually almost watertight. These are
designed for constant use in the water. Once a thin film of water forms
inside the suit it is warmed by the body and tends to stay put. I used
to windsurf here in the UK in the middle of winter and stay comfortable
so long as I was active. As they are designed for a person who is
actually in the water some or most of the time - I am not sure how
appropriate they would be for someone only taking the occasional,
unplanned dip into the sea or river and then wanting to get out asap.

Within my circle of paddling companions the preference is for a fleece
type layer protected by a waterproof (but not dry) outer shell. This
stops us suffering from the overheating of a dry suit. Though I would
use a dry suit if I knew I was going to get wet - eg when rescue
training, etc.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Wetsuits vs. drysuits 

 >
 >
 > re the surfers in New England - reflecting on my Windsurfing days. they
 > were more than likely to be using 'steamers'. These are 'wetsuits' but
 > all the seams are sealed so water can only enter slowly through the neck
 > hand and feet openings, the zip is usually almost watertight. These are
 > designed for constant use in the water. Once a thin film of water forms
 > inside the suit it is warmed by the body and tends to stay put. I used
 > to windsurf here in the UK in the middle of winter and stay comfortable
 > so long as I was active. As they are designed for a person who is
 > actually in the water some or most of the time - I am not sure how
 > appropriate they would be for someone only taking the occasional,
 > unplanned dip into the sea or river and then wanting to get out asap.




This is generally true. Before I started paddling,, I surfed regularly,
including a few years of year-round surfing in Maine. My wet suit was
what they actually termed a "semi-dry suit", meaning it had the taped
seams and sealed zipper you mention. It was THICK, 5 or 6 mm versus the
2 0r 3 of most paddling wet suits. I tried using it my first winter of
paddling, and found the thickness prohibitive, it impaired my mobility,
and it was very tiring fighting all that rubber with my arms. I quickly
put a coated nylon dry suit.

Also, as you mention, a wet suit works best when you're in the water,
and this isn't the case with paddling.

I still have the wet suit, and would use it over the dry suit for
surfing. The dry suit would not be as warm surfing where I'm in the
water. Different activiites, with different equipment.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Wetsuits vs. drysuits 

doug m <T.TakeThisOut@rcn.com> writes:

 > has anyone seen documented fatalities attributable to hypothermia for
 > a properly fitted wetsuit or drysuit used in canoeing, rafting or
 > kayaking?

No, however, as I paddle in the UK, and our paddling season is in the
winter I have used a dry-cag/dry-trousers combo for a few years, but
most beginners use wetsuits of some type. When getting off the water
most of the group will be exhibiting extremely mild symptoms of
hypothermia, such as slight stuttering, and difficulty undoing
buoyancy aid buckles, so hypothermia can be a factor, and I can
remember at least one occasion were someone has had to walk off the
river due to hypothermia issues.

The main reason I use a dry-top/trousers combo though is nothing
to do with warmth issues, but simply because, IMO, they are far more
comfortable and less restrictive than a wetsuit is.

 > thinking about the question further, surfers in New England use
 > wetsuits nearly exclusively. i don't think i've ever noted a drysuit
 > used by a surfer. they spend hours in the water at cold temperatures
 > and require quick reflexes and great coordination. it would appear
 > that wetsuits offer these users the protection they need.

The wetsuits that they tend to wear would I suspect be specialist winter
wetsuits, which, as pointed out by other posters, are rather different,
and more restrictive, than wetsuits typically used for paddling.

--
James jamesk[at]homeric[dot]co[dot]uk

Do something unusual today. Pay a bill.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Wetsuits vs. drysuits 

doug m wrote:

 > thinking about the question further, surfers in New England use wetsuits
 > nearly exclusively. i don't think i've ever noted a drysuit used by a
 > surfer. they spend hours in the water at cold temperatures and require
 > quick reflexes and great coordination.

How thick is the neoprene of those wetsuits? 3, 4, 6 mm ?
I don't think that I would want to wear one out of >3mm neoprene for
paddling, 3mm is sometimes to restrictive. And a full wetsuit? I think I
would be very uncomfortable in it, thus likely tempted not to wear it.
As we all know you need immersion protection in case you tip over. Most of
the time this doesn't happen on a seakayaking trip. Surfers and WW paddlers
get wet by nature of the sport, and cool of that way, seakayakers not
necessarily. So we need to find a compromise between being comfortable while
high and dry, and increased survival time in case we find ourselves swimming
next to our boat. Both, wet and drysuit just buy you more time to get out of
the water, but the time window will not last for ever.

I rate the wearing comfort of a breathable drysuit much higher than the one
of a farmer john wet suit, espcl. on those days when the air is warm and the
water is cold -like all summer in Nova Scotia.


Ulli
(Halifax NS, air temperature last weekend >20, water temperature ~10)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Wetsuits vs. drysuits 

Bill Tuthill wrote:

 > doug m <T.DeleteThis@rcn.com> wrote:
  > >
  > > I own both and have used both for a number of years. My question is:
  > > "Was the drysuit necessary, or did I fall for the 'sports marketing' hype?"
 >
 > You fell for sports marketing hype.

Baloney.

 > Note how the drysuit costs more,

This seems to be the crux of the issue for wetsuit proponents. From what I've
seen, most of them are simply looking for justification for NOT spending the
money for a dry suit. If you want to be cheap, be cheap, that's your perogative.
However, that doesn't mean that you're getting equivalent protection

 > is less durable, and more prone to catastrophic failure.

This is largely a red herring. Sure, the potential for failures is there, but as
a practical matter, it's not an issue. The only gasket failures I've seen have
occured when the paddler was donning or removing the suit, which is when the
gaskets can be stretched pretty hard. They don't fail in use, since they're not
under any appreciable stress.

 > The only problem with a wetsuit is that, in heavy cold rain, the layer
 > of warm water next to your skin gets replaced too quickly to rewarm.

No, the real problem with wetsuits is that in order to get the same level of
immersion protection as a drysuit/fleece combination, you'd need a wetsuit so
thick that you couldn't paddle in it, as was mentioned in a previous post.

 > However this problem can be mitigated by wearing drypants, at much
 > lower cost than a drysuit.

Dry pants + a wet suit is going to come quite close in price to the cost of a dry
suit.

 > What baffles me is the number of drysuits that come with ankle gaskets
 > instead of integral booties. Unless it keeps your feet dry and warm,
 > the drysuit's only advantage is that, after boating, you can drive away
 > without changing clothes.

"Only advantage"? Hardly, though it sure is nice not to have to expose damp skin
to a biting winter breeze after paddling. With ankle gaskets, your feet can still
be warm with the proper footwear, though if you end up swimming, they won't stay
dry. Every dry suit manufacturer offers latex or Gore-Tex boots as an option.
They can easily be added to a suit with ankle gaskets by the consumer.

One thing you forgot to mention was the versatility of dry suits. They can be
used with a wide variety of underlayers so they can function well in water/air
temps from below freezing to the low 70's.

In a waterproof/breathable drysuit, you don't have to spend the day "stewing in
your own juices" like you do in a wetsuit. While you may become damp when
exerting yourself, you'll dry off when you reduce your activity level. In a
wetsuit, you start dry, but quickly get damp and it can only get worse as the day
wears on.

Wetsuits have one REAL advantage over dry suits and that is price. If that's what
matters most to you, your decision is simple. Just don't try to delude yourself
into thinking that you're getting the same protection, versatility or comfort for
a bargain basement price. You aren't; you're getting what you paid for.

--
Regards

Brian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Wetsuits vs. drysuits