Water systems on my boat - need suggestions, please.

Dan;
I have been told that ABS shouldn't be used because can break.
But PVC is OK.
In my system Seacocks and all fittings are bronze made.
PVC for pressurized seawater system
PVC/ABS in grey system only.
BTW "Tricia Jean" - looks nice
Adam

"Dan Best" <dan.TakeThisOut@dbhome.org> wrote in message
news:Hgfhc.7240$Fo4.87677@typhoon.sonic.net...
 > I'm no exoert, but I don't like using PVC anwhere on a boat. As it
 > ages, it gets brittle and can break. For underground or in a house,
 > this isn't an issue. But in a boat, there is constant vibration, etc.
 > that can cause it to crack when it looses its' elasticity.
 >
 > The only time I've ever had uncontrolled water entering a boat, was when
 > a PVC adapter that a previous owner had put on a through hull failed
 > (it's amazing how fast the water comes through a 3/4" thru-hull when
 > this happens).
 >
 > Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
 > B-2/75 1977-1979
 > Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG</font" target="_blank">http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG</font</a>>
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Water systems on my boat - need suggestions, please. 

PVC ftgs work well, but they should not be installed with any stresses
on them (ie. nothing resting on top of them or pulling on them). Also,
when connecting plastic to metal with threads, try to make the metal the
female and the plastic the male - it's easy to tighten the connection to
the point where a metal male thread will split the female plastic ftg.
If it's necessary to use a female plastic ftg, put 5 or 6 layers of
teflon tape on the male end and only tighten by hand until it stops
leaking. Start threads carefully - it's _very_ easy to cross thread
plastic on metal. PVC pipe needs firm support every 2' and any fixture
connections s/b made with hose to reduce vibration and stress on the
pipe when the boat hull "moves".

Suggest, if you have room, you install a TEE ftg direct onto the seacock
and take off the water from the side. Cap or plug the top of the TEE
(make sure to use lots of teflon goo and tape and tighter LESS than the
TEE/ThruHull joint. If/when the thru-hull becomes plugged, you close the
seacock as possible, remove the plug, thread on (quickly) a short length
of pipe you have handy to raise the opening above the water line, then
open the seacock and poke everything clear with a length of smaller
diameter pipe. On the supply, works best when you do not have a
permanently installed grill over the thru-hull on the outside of the
hull, but instead rely on a large cleanable strainer inboard.

All hose s/b opaque because light will encourage various live growths in
the hose.

Rufus


Adam wrote:
 > Dan;
 > I have been told that ABS shouldn't be used because can break.
 > But PVC is OK.
 > In my system Seacocks and all fittings are bronze made.
 > PVC for pressurized seawater system
 > PVC/ABS in grey system only.
 > BTW "Tricia Jean" - looks nice
 > Adam
 >
 > "Dan Best" <dan RemoveThis @dbhome.org> wrote in message
 > news:Hgfhc.7240$Fo4.87677@typhoon.sonic.net...
 >
  >>I'm no exoert, but I don't like using PVC anwhere on a boat. As it
  >>ages, it gets brittle and can break. For underground or in a house,
  >>this isn't an issue. But in a boat, there is constant vibration, etc.
  >>that can cause it to crack when it looses its' elasticity.
  >>
  >>The only time I've ever had uncontrolled water entering a boat, was when
  >>a PVC adapter that a previous owner had put on a through hull failed
  >>(it's amazing how fast the water comes through a 3/4" thru-hull when
  >>this happens).
  >>
  >>Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
  >>B-2/75 1977-1979
  >>Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
  >>http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG
  >>
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Water systems on my boat - need suggestions, please. 

Thanks Rufus
Adam
"Rufus Laggren" <delete_rufusl2001 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qoUlc.32881$kh4.1589335@attbi_s52...
 > PVC ftgs work well, but they should not be installed with any stresses
 > on them (ie. nothing resting on top of them or pulling on them). Also,
 > when connecting plastic to metal with threads, try to make the metal the
 > female and the plastic the male - it's easy to tighten the connection to
 > the point where a metal male thread will split the female plastic ftg.
 > If it's necessary to use a female plastic ftg, put 5 or 6 layers of
 > teflon tape on the male end and only tighten by hand until it stops
 > leaking. Start threads carefully - it's _very_ easy to cross thread
 > plastic on metal. PVC pipe needs firm support every 2' and any fixture
 > connections s/b made with hose to reduce vibration and stress on the
 > pipe when the boat hull "moves".
 >
 > Suggest, if you have room, you install a TEE ftg direct onto the seacock
 > and take off the water from the side. Cap or plug the top of the TEE
 > (make sure to use lots of teflon goo and tape and tighter LESS than the
 > TEE/ThruHull joint. If/when the thru-hull becomes plugged, you close the
 > seacock as possible, remove the plug, thread on (quickly) a short length
 > of pipe you have handy to raise the opening above the water line, then
 > open the seacock and poke everything clear with a length of smaller
 > diameter pipe. On the supply, works best when you do not have a
 > permanently installed grill over the thru-hull on the outside of the
 > hull, but instead rely on a large cleanable strainer inboard.
 >
 > All hose s/b opaque because light will encourage various live growths in
 > the hose.
 >
 > Rufus
 >
 >
 > Adam wrote:
  > > Dan;
  > > I have been told that ABS shouldn't be used because can break.
  > > But PVC is OK.
  > > In my system Seacocks and all fittings are bronze made.
  > > PVC for pressurized seawater system
  > > PVC/ABS in grey system only.
  > > BTW "Tricia Jean" - looks nice
  > > Adam
  > >
  > > "Dan Best" <dan RemoveThis @dbhome.org> wrote in message
  > > news:Hgfhc.7240$Fo4.87677@typhoon.sonic.net...
  > >
   > >>I'm no exoert, but I don't like using PVC anwhere on a boat. As it
   > >>ages, it gets brittle and can break. For underground or in a house,
   > >>this isn't an issue. But in a boat, there is constant vibration, etc.
   > >>that can cause it to crack when it looses its' elasticity.
   > >>
   > >>The only time I've ever had uncontrolled water entering a boat, was when
   > >>a PVC adapter that a previous owner had put on a through hull failed
   > >>(it's amazing how fast the water comes through a 3/4" thru-hull when
   > >>this happens).
   > >>
   > >>Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
   > >>B-2/75 1977-1979
   > >>Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
   > >>http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG
   > >>
  > >
  > >
  > ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Water systems on my boat - need suggestions, please. 

Adam,
You may want to consider plumbing in a fresh water flush for your
heads. I'm a liveaboard and I can tell you from experience salt water
and a holding tank can create a stench that will put you on your
knees. Also, salt water and uric acid will quickly cause scale to
form in the head and the lines. When I used salt water to flush, I
had to remove and clean my lines out about every 12 months. They
would become plugged with scale. A little vinegar in the head every
week helps reduce the problem but doesn't eliminate it. I now flush
my heads with fresh water and it has drastically reduce the
maintainence on the heads and holding tank plus eliminated alot of the
odor.

Dan

"Adam" <as.DeleteThis@scicam.com> wrote in message news:<1qudnUY-aeSz8RjdRVn-ig.DeleteThis@onramp.ca>...
 > This is a very short list/description of what I'm going to install on my
 > boat.
 >
 > Any suggestions, changes or recommendation are more than welcome.
 >
 > Thanks in advance
 >
 > Adam
 >
 > Project - 37' "Spray" by Bruce Roberts, GRP, wheelhouse, 2-4 people aboard,
 > off shore cruiser.
 >
 > Fresh water - 2x60 gallons polyethylene water tanks, 5/8" I.D PVC with Nylon
 > Reinforcement hose to main bronze manifolds (with red brass nipples), GROCO
 > WSC60, ½" I.D PVC with Nylon Reinforcement hose -> Galley, Head sink and
 > shower, Cockpit shower.
 >
 > Sea water - Washdown - Jabsco 30700-012, 1/2" I.D PVC with Nylon
 > Reinforcement hose. PVC fittings - two utility tubes (fore & aft).
 >
 > Gray water - 1x 30 gallons polyethylene grey tank, for galley, head sink and
 > head shower. All "piping" with 1" Sanitation Hose, ABS/PVC fittings.
 > Discharge - Commercial Duty Water Puppy Model 16360-1003 Jabsco & Check
 > Valve + Hand Diaphragm Pump Jabsco -> Seacock just above WL.
 >
 > Bilge - Rule 3700 Bilge Pump & Rule Superswitch & Check Valve + two Hand
 > Diaphragm Pump Jabsco - one operated from cockpit and one from wheelhouse.
 >
 > Sanitation - 30 gallons polyethylene holding tank with Macerator pump Jabsco
 > + Check Valve. Dock discharge through deck fill.
 >
 >
 >
 > Fresh water - from fresh water tanks, water maker and shore supply
 >
 > Fresh water supplied through the two deck fills (star or port side), or
 > through pressurized shore supply (with pressure regulator).
 >
 >
 >
 > On dock - fresh water shore supply can be connected directly to sea water
 > system.
 >
 >
 >
 > Head - water from sea water system - discharge to holding tank or outside
 > through Y valve, 1 1/2" Sanitation Hose
 >
 >
 >
 > Two seacock 2" - one for IN and one for OUT.
 >
 >
 >
 > Separate faucets for seawater only in galley and head sink.
 >
 >
 >
 > As a backup - galley and head sink have foot pumps for fresh water - not
 > pressurized through the Y valve for seawater optional.
 >
 > Questions: What kind of water heater (diesel fuel?), which toilette? I
 > didn't know that I have to many to choose from - thanks Peggie , What
 > about strainers/filters and check valves - I have to install some of them.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Water systems on my boat - need suggestions, please. 

First some comments for Dan...then some questions for Adam:

Dan wrote:
 > Adam,
 > You may want to consider plumbing in a fresh water flush for your
 > heads.

There are only two ways to do that without risk of polluting the potable
water: install a toilet designed to use pressurized flush water, or
install a separate flush water tank. There is no safe way to connect to
any toilet designed to flush with raw water to the potable water
system...in fact, the installation instructions for all of 'em
specifically warn against doing it.

HOwever, there's a very simple solution that solves the problem without
adding a tank, or risking an e-coli infection: tee the head sink drain
into the head intake line. To flush all the sea water out of the whole
system, close the seacock, fill the sink with fresh water, flush the
toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet pulls water the water
out of the sink. You can either use this method to purge the system of
sea water, or keep the seacock closed and use the sink to flush the
toilet all the time.

 > I'm a liveaboard and I can tell you from experience salt water
 > and a holding tank can create a stench that will put you on your
 > knees.

Although sea water left to stagnate in a head intake can generate
horrific odor in the head, whether the toilet is flushed with fresh
or sea water makes no difference in the holding tank.

 > Also, salt water and uric acid will quickly cause scale to
 > form in the head and the lines. When I used salt water to flush, I
 > had to remove and clean my lines out about every 12 months. They
 > would become plugged with scale. A little vinegar in the head every
 > week helps reduce the problem but doesn't eliminate it.

A cupful of undiluted WHITE vinegar flushed all the way through the
hoses once a week prevents it for everyone else who does it
religiously...very odd that it didn't for you.


Adam (forgive me if I've already asked these questions...my email at
this time of year averages about 100 a week)...

  >>Gray water - 1x 30 gallons polyethylene grey tank, for galley, head sink and
  >>head shower. All "piping" with 1" Sanitation Hose, ABS/PVC fittings.
  >>Discharge - Commercial Duty Water Puppy Model 16360-1003 Jabsco & Check
  >>Valve + Hand Diaphragm Pump Jabsco -> Seacock just above WL.

Why do you want to hold gray water? It's not required in any coastal
waters except in a few very small clearly marked areas in the FL Keys
National Marine Sanctuary where even the discharge of bilge water is
prohibited...but so is anchoring, so it's not much of an issue. At most
all you should need just about anywhere in the world is a shower sump.

  >>Sanitation - 30 gallons polyethylene holding tank with Macerator pump Jabsco
  >>+ Check Valve. Dock discharge through deck fill.

I'd go with a diaphragm pump...they can run dry without harm. The
SeaLand pump is your best choice. Please tell me you aren't planning to
use the deck pumpout fill to dump the tank at sea? It can be done, but
it's not recommended. How 'bout giving me more details about how you
plan to plumb this system. And why are you opting for a holding tank
instead of a Type I MSD (device that treats waste and discharges it
overboard legally)?
  >>Head - water from sea water system - discharge to holding tank or outside
  >>through Y valve, 1 1/2" Sanitation Hose

  >>Two seacock 2" - one for IN and one for OUT.

2" for head intake and discharge? All marine toilets use a 3/4"
intake...head and tank overboard discharge should be 1.5". If you go
with too large a diameter, it can cause a pressure drop.

  >>Questions: which toilette? I
  >>didn't know that I have to many to choose from - thanks Peggie ,

Uh-oh...it looks like I HAVE asked these questions already...


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/product.php?productid=40&cat=&page=1" target="_blank">http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/product.php?productid=40&cat=&page=1</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Water systems on my boat - need suggestions, please. 

Peggie,
Good points. I didn't mean to connect the head to the fresh water
supply directly. What I've done is plump in a seperate fixture - a
spray nozzle found on a lot of kitchen faucets next to the head. I
add fresh water this way.

My scale buildup is the result of a wife that refuses to flush the
head at night. She says the electic head makes too much noise and she
doesn't want to wake me up. I'd rather have her disturb my sleep :>.

I have noticed a difference in the holding tank odor when using fresh
and salt water. With fresh, I do not even need to add a deodorizer to
it. With salt water, the stench is noticable walking past the boat on
hot days. I figured the salt water would act as an antiseptic but
there's so many things living in it that it seems to make things
worse. But truth be told, I'm in brackish water - not true salt
water.

Dan

Peggie Hall <peghall.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<409C64DC.9000700.TakeThisOut@nospam.com>...
 > First some comments for Dan...then some questions for Adam:
 >
 > Dan wrote:
  > > Adam,
  > > You may want to consider plumbing in a fresh water flush for your
  > > heads.
 >
 > There are only two ways to do that without risk of polluting the potable
 > water: install a toilet designed to use pressurized flush water, or
 > install a separate flush water tank. There is no safe way to connect to
 > any toilet designed to flush with raw water to the potable water
 > system...in fact, the installation instructions for all of 'em
 > specifically warn against doing it.
 >
 > HOwever, there's a very simple solution that solves the problem without
 > adding a tank, or risking an e-coli infection: tee the head sink drain
 > into the head intake line. To flush all the sea water out of the whole
 > system, close the seacock, fill the sink with fresh water, flush the
 > toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet pulls water the water
 > out of the sink. You can either use this method to purge the system of
 > sea water, or keep the seacock closed and use the sink to flush the
 > toilet all the time.
 >
  > > I'm a liveaboard and I can tell you from experience salt water
  > > and a holding tank can create a stench that will put you on your
  > > knees.
 >
 > Although sea water left to stagnate in a head intake can generate
 > horrific odor in the head, whether the toilet is flushed with fresh
 > or sea water makes no difference in the holding tank.
 >
  > > Also, salt water and uric acid will quickly cause scale to
  > > form in the head and the lines. When I used salt water to flush, I
  > > had to remove and clean my lines out about every 12 months. They
  > > would become plugged with scale. A little vinegar in the head every
  > > week helps reduce the problem but doesn't eliminate it.
 >
 > A cupful of undiluted WHITE vinegar flushed all the way through the
 > hoses once a week prevents it for everyone else who does it
 > religiously...very odd that it didn't for you.
 >
 >
 > Adam (forgive me if I've already asked these questions...my email at
 > this time of year averages about 100 a week)...
 >
   > >>Gray water - 1x 30 gallons polyethylene grey tank, for galley, head sink and
   > >>head shower. All "piping" with 1" Sanitation Hose, ABS/PVC fittings.
   > >>Discharge - Commercial Duty Water Puppy Model 16360-1003 Jabsco & Check
   > >>Valve + Hand Diaphragm Pump Jabsco -> Seacock just above WL.
 >
 > Why do you want to hold gray water? It's not required in any coastal
 > waters except in a few very small clearly marked areas in the FL Keys
 > National Marine Sanctuary where even the discharge of bilge water is
 > prohibited...but so is anchoring, so it's not much of an issue. At most
 > all you should need just about anywhere in the world is a shower sump.
 >
   > >>Sanitation - 30 gallons polyethylene holding tank with Macerator pump Jabsco
   > >>+ Check Valve. Dock discharge through deck fill.
 >
 > I'd go with a diaphragm pump...they can run dry without harm. The
 > SeaLand pump is your best choice. Please tell me you aren't planning to
 > use the deck pumpout fill to dump the tank at sea? It can be done, but
 > it's not recommended. How 'bout giving me more details about how you
 > plan to plumb this system. And why are you opting for a holding tank
 > instead of a Type I MSD (device that treats waste and discharges it
 > overboard legally)?
   > >>Head - water from sea water system - discharge to holding tank or outside
   > >>through Y valve, 1 1/2" Sanitation Hose
 >
   > >>Two seacock 2" - one for IN and one for OUT.
 >
 > 2" for head intake and discharge? All marine toilets use a 3/4"
 > intake...head and tank overboard discharge should be 1.5". If you go
 > with too large a diameter, it can cause a pressure drop.
 >
   > >>Questions: which toilette? I
   > >>didn't know that I have to many to choose from - thanks Peggie ,
 >
 > Uh-oh...it looks like I HAVE asked these questions already...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Water systems on my boat - need suggestions, please. 

Dan wrote:
 > I have noticed a difference in the holding tank odor when using fresh
 > and salt water. With fresh, I do not even need to add a deodorizer to
 > it. With salt water, the stench is noticable walking past the boat on
 > hot days. I figured the salt water would act as an antiseptic but
 > there's so many things living in it that it seems to make things
 > worse. But truth be told, I'm in brackish water - not true salt
 > water.

That's very strange, 'cuz both waste and sea water are organic matter,
all organic matter breaks down the same way--odorless in an aerobic
environment, stinky in an anaerobic environment. So unless you're adding
a LOT of bacteriacide (bleach?) to your fresh water tank, flushing with
fresh or salt water shouldn't make any difference in holding tank odor.

Peggie

 > Peggie Hall <peghall.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<409C64DC.9000700.TakeThisOut@nospam.com>...
 >
  >>First some comments for Dan...then some questions for Adam:
  >>
  >>Dan wrote:
  >>
   >>>Adam,
   >>> You may want to consider plumbing in a fresh water flush for your
   >>>heads.
  >>
  >>There are only two ways to do that without risk of polluting the potable
  >>water: install a toilet designed to use pressurized flush water, or
  >>install a separate flush water tank. There is no safe way to connect to
  >>any toilet designed to flush with raw water to the potable water
  >>system...in fact, the installation instructions for all of 'em
  >>specifically warn against doing it.
  >>
  >>HOwever, there's a very simple solution that solves the problem without
  >>adding a tank, or risking an e-coli infection: tee the head sink drain
  >>into the head intake line. To flush all the sea water out of the whole
  >>system, close the seacock, fill the sink with fresh water, flush the
  >>toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet pulls water the water
  >>out of the sink. You can either use this method to purge the system of
  >>sea water, or keep the seacock closed and use the sink to flush the
  >>toilet all the time.
  >>
  >>
   >>>I'm a liveaboard and I can tell you from experience salt water
   >>>and a holding tank can create a stench that will put you on your
   >>>knees.
  >>
  >>Although sea water left to stagnate in a head intake can generate
  >>horrific odor in the head, whether the toilet is flushed with fresh
  >>or sea water makes no difference in the holding tank.
  >>
  >>
   >>>Also, salt water and uric acid will quickly cause scale to
   >>>form in the head and the lines. When I used salt water to flush, I
   >>>had to remove and clean my lines out about every 12 months. They
   >>>would become plugged with scale. A little vinegar in the head every
   >>>week helps reduce the problem but doesn't eliminate it.
  >>
  >>A cupful of undiluted WHITE vinegar flushed all the way through the
  >>hoses once a week prevents it for everyone else who does it
  >>religiously...very odd that it didn't for you.
  >>
  >>
  >>Adam (forgive me if I've already asked these questions...my email at
  >>this time of year averages about 100 a week)...
  >>
  >>
   >>>>Gray water - 1x 30 gallons polyethylene grey tank, for galley, head sink and
   >>>>head shower. All "piping" with 1" Sanitation Hose, ABS/PVC fittings.
   >>>>Discharge - Commercial Duty Water Puppy Model 16360-1003 Jabsco & Check
   >>>>Valve + Hand Diaphragm Pump Jabsco -> Seacock just above WL.
   >>>
  >>Why do you want to hold gray water? It's not required in any coastal
  >>waters except in a few very small clearly marked areas in the FL Keys
  >>National Marine Sanctuary where even the discharge of bilge water is
  >>prohibited...but so is anchoring, so it's not much of an issue. At most
  >>all you should need just about anywhere in the world is a shower sump.
  >>
  >>
   >>>>Sanitation - 30 gallons polyethylene holding tank with Macerator pump Jabsco
   >>>>+ Check Valve. Dock discharge through deck fill.
   >>>
  >> I'd go with a diaphragm pump...they can run dry without harm. The
  >>SeaLand pump is your best choice. Please tell me you aren't planning to
  >>use the deck pumpout fill to dump the tank at sea? It can be done, but
  >>it's not recommended. How 'bout giving me more details about how you
  >>plan to plumb this system. And why are you opting for a holding tank
  >>instead of a Type I MSD (device that treats waste and discharges it
  >>overboard legally)?
  >>
   >>>>Head - water from sea water system - discharge to holding tank or outside
   >>>>through Y valve, 1 1/2" Sanitation Hose
   >>>
  >>
  >>
   >>>>Two seacock 2" - one for IN and one for OUT.
   >>>
  >>2" for head intake and discharge? All marine toilets use a 3/4"
  >>intake...head and tank overboard discharge should be 1.5". If you go
  >>with too large a diameter, it can cause a pressure drop.
  >>
  >>
   >>>>Questions: which toilette? I
   >>>>didn't know that I have to many to choose from - thanks Peggie ,
   >>>
  >>Uh-oh...it looks like I HAVE asked these questions already...
 >


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/product.php?productid=40&cat=&page=1" target="_blank">http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/product.php?productid=40&cat=&page=1</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detail.tpl?fno=400&group=327" target="_blank">http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detail.tpl?fno=400&group=327</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Water systems on my boat - need suggestions, please. 

First of all - thanks for advices.
Second of all - Peggie - I just got your book - it is great. I've finished
read it during this weekend, and now I have to revised some of my ideas.
Third of all - my boat is still under construction so I can do all suggested
modification.
I. The idea with fresh water from sink - it's very clever but not
"understandable" for all on board.
I have plenty of room so I'll go with separate tank.
The question about that: - how big is reasonable? I would go with 30
gallons.
With separate tank I will be able to use electric or manual head. Not for
pressurized water.
II. Why separate tank for Gray water - if I do not have a tank I'll have to
use two pumps; for shower and galley. With tank I can connect galley, sink
and shower together and pump out if needed.
The concern is only if it is another source of odour problem.
III. Two seacock 2" - I have revised it already.
One seacock 2" for cockpit drains bellow water line (plus 3" transom scupper
above water line).
Second seacock 2" is intake - for all sources including engine, ac and
fridge.
Third 1.5" for head discharge - bellow water line
And it looks like I'll need one more for gray water just above water line.
Adam


"Peggie Hall" <peghall.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:409C64DC.9000700@nospam.com...
 > First some comments for Dan...then some questions for Adam:
 >
 > Dan wrote:
  > > Adam,
  > > You may want to consider plumbing in a fresh water flush for your
  > > heads.
 >
 > There are only two ways to do that without risk of polluting the potable
 > water: install a toilet designed to use pressurized flush water, or
 > install a separate flush water tank. There is no safe way to connect to
 > any toilet designed to flush with raw water to the potable water
 > system...in fact, the installation instructions for all of 'em
 > specifically warn against doing it.
 >
 > HOwever, there's a very simple solution that solves the problem without
 > adding a tank, or risking an e-coli infection: tee the head sink drain
 > into the head intake line. To flush all the sea water out of the whole
 > system, close the seacock, fill the sink with fresh water, flush the
 > toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet pulls water the water
 > out of the sink. You can either use this method to purge the system of
 > sea water, or keep the seacock closed and use the sink to flush the
 > toilet all the time.
 >
  > > I'm a liveaboard and I can tell you from experience salt water
  > > and a holding tank can create a stench that will put you on your
  > > knees.
 >
 > Although sea water left to stagnate in a head intake can generate
 > horrific odor in the head, whether the toilet is flushed with fresh
 > or sea water makes no difference in the holding tank.
 >
  > > Also, salt water and uric acid will quickly cause scale to
  > > form in the head and the lines. When I used salt water to flush, I
  > > had to remove and clean my lines out about every 12 months. They
  > > would become plugged with scale. A little vinegar in the head every
  > > week helps reduce the problem but doesn't eliminate it.
 >
 > A cupful of undiluted WHITE vinegar flushed all the way through the
 > hoses once a week prevents it for everyone else who does it
 > religiously...very odd that it didn't for you.
 >
 >
 > Adam (forgive me if I've already asked these questions...my email at
 > this time of year averages about 100 a week)...
 >
   > >>Gray water - 1x 30 gallons polyethylene grey tank, for galley, head sink
and
   > >>head shower. All "piping" with 1" Sanitation Hose, ABS/PVC fittings.
   > >>Discharge - Commercial Duty Water Puppy Model 16360-1003 Jabsco & Check
   > >>Valve + Hand Diaphragm Pump Jabsco -> Seacock just above WL.
 >
 > Why do you want to hold gray water? It's not required in any coastal
 > waters except in a few very small clearly marked areas in the FL Keys
 > National Marine Sanctuary where even the discharge of bilge water is
 > prohibited...but so is anchoring, so it's not much of an issue. At most
 > all you should need just about anywhere in the world is a shower sump.
 >
   > >>Sanitation - 30 gallons polyethylene holding tank with Macerator pump
Jabsco
   > >>+ Check Valve. Dock discharge through deck fill.
 >
 > I'd go with a diaphragm pump...they can run dry without harm. The
 > SeaLand pump is your best choice. Please tell me you aren't planning to
 > use the deck pumpout fill to dump the tank at sea? It can be done, but
 > it's not recommended. How 'bout giving me more details about how you
 > plan to plumb this system. And why are you opting for a holding tank
 > instead of a Type I MSD (device that treats waste and discharges it
 > overboard legally)?
   > >>Head - water from sea water system - discharge to holding tank or
outside
   > >>through Y valve, 1 1/2" Sanitation Hose
 >
   > >>Two seacock 2" - one for IN and one for OUT.
 >
 > 2" for head intake and discharge? All marine toilets use a 3/4"
 > intake...head and tank overboard discharge should be 1.5". If you go
 > with too large a diameter, it can cause a pressure drop.
 >
   > >>Questions: which toilette? I
   > >>didn't know that I have to many to choose from - thanks Peggie ,
 >
 > Uh-oh...it looks like I HAVE asked these questions already...
 >
 >
 > --
 > Peggie
 > ----------
 > Peggie Hall
 > Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
 > Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
 > Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/product.php?productid=40&cat=&page=1</font" target="_blank">http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/product.php?productid=40&cat=&page=1</font</a>>
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Water systems on my boat - need suggestions, please. 

Adam wrote:
  > I. The idea with fresh water from sink - it's very clever but not
  > "understandable" for all on board.

Perhaps not for flushing, but surely you could could use it to flush
all the sea water out of the system weekly. But, it's your boat...

  > I have plenty of room so I'll go with separate tank.
  > The question about that: - how big is reasonable? I would go with 30
  > gallons.

"Big enough" depends on several things: how many people are using the
head, how much flush water the toilet uses, how long away from the dock
to refill it.

  > With separate tank I will be able to use electric or manual head.
Not for
  > pressurized water.

I can't find an earlier post of yours I was looking for...but didn't you
say you're installing a watermaker? If so, why the concern about
fresh water consumption by a toilet that uses pressurized water? For
that matter, if you have space for another 30 gal. tank to do nothing
but supply flush water to the toilet, why not just increase your fresh
water holding capacity instead. Toilets designed to use pressurized
flush water use half or less the amount required by raw water toilets.

But whatever you ultimately decide to do, we prob'ly ought to discuss
which toilet before you buy one.


  > II. Why separate tank for Gray water - if I do not have a tank I'll
have to
  > use two pumps; for shower and galley. With tank I can connect galley,
sink
  > and shower together and pump out if needed.
  > The concern is only if it is another source of odour problem.

It is. A gray water tank is full of bacteria, and can stink as bad as,
even worse than, a waste holding tank. Plus, gray water tanks also have
grease, soap scum, hair etc to deal with. Your galley and head sinks can
drain directly overboard...only the shower needs a sump. And a smal sump
is a LOT easier to keep clean and odor free than a tank.

  > Second seacock 2" is intake - for all sources including engine, ac and
  > fridge.

Get some advice from engine, ac and fridge mfr about the advisability of
only one common intake and the size needed. My first thought is that all
running at the same time could reduce the water flow needed by one--or
even all--enough to damage its pump.

  > Third 1.5" for head discharge - bellow water line

Consider adding a Lectra/San (CG Certified Type I MSD that treats waste
and discharges it overboard legally)...you'd use the holding tank only
if/when you ever visit a "no discharge" harbor.

  > And it looks like I'll need one more for gray water just above water
line.

If you go with a shower sump instead, you could tee it into the head
discharge line...after the Lectra/San, but ahead of the vented loop.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/product.php?productid=40&cat=&page=1" target="_blank">http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/product.php?productid=40&cat=&page=1</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Water systems on my boat - need suggestions, please.