Yet Another Tragic Case......

On Nov 30, 10:15�am, LoogyPic....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 30, 12:34 pm, Phant....TakeThisOut@nospam.invalid wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 30 Nov 07, Chuck Gould wrote:
> > >A boat capsized about five miles from
> > >shore, killing the three fishermen on board, authorities said
>
> > No word on what caused the boat to capsize???
>
> The usual suspects will blame it on
> 1. Stupidity
> 2. Alcohol
> 3. Ignorance
>
> All without any evidence of such.

There is nothing in the story to indicate alcohol was a factor.

Stupidity? Ignorance? Maybe extreme........but carelessness can be
inferred from the fact that they were out in a small boat in the North
Atlantic, during late November, and not a single one of them thought
to put on a PFD. The jackets were apparently all aboard, just as
*required* by the USCG...

They may or may not have survived had they been wearing pfd.

In 50 degree water, the major challenges would include:

1) remaining conscious after hitting the water. It's not tough to
imagine getting a conk on the head as the boat turns over, and there
is a lot of evidence that many people go into cardiac arrest as a
result cold water immersion. If three guys go in wearing PFD, and one
gets conked out, the other two have a better chance of grabbing him
and keeping his face out of the water than if they're using every bit
of strength available just to try to keep themselves afloat.

2) avoiding hypothermia. Almost impossible without a survival suit or
getting out of the water. If the boat was still floating, upside down,
wearing a pfd *might* provide just the extra flotation and lift needed
to
haul out onto the wreckage instead of remaining in the water. The cold
air will also result in hypothermia, but it takes longer for 40 degree
air to cool the body than 50 degree water, particularly if any portion
of the clothing is dry.

3) summoning help. Options are pretty limited if you don't have a
personal ebirb attached to the PFD, but whatever the options are they
will be better if the boater is conscious and afloat. Hopefully the
small boat was rigged with a ditch bag, and that should be floating
somewhere nearby with a portable VHF, a couple of flares, and some
basic survival stuff. Retrieving the ditch bag will be much easier if
any sort of cold water "swim" to its location is assisted by PFD
 >> Stay informed about: Yet Another Tragic Case...... 

On Fri, 30 Nov 07, Chuck Gould wrote:
>A boat capsized about five miles from
>shore, killing the three fishermen on board, authorities said

No word on what caused the boat to capsize???
 >> Stay informed about: Yet Another Tragic Case...... 

On Nov 30, 1:35 pm, sa....TakeThisOut@dog.com wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:15:23 -0800 (PST), LoogyPic....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> >On Nov 30, 12:34 pm, Phant....TakeThisOut@nospam.invalid wrote:
> >> On Fri, 30 Nov 07, Chuck Gould wrote:
> >> >A boat capsized about five miles from
> >> >shore, killing the three fishermen on board, authorities said
>
> >> No word on what caused the boat to capsize???
>
> >The usual suspects will blame it on
> >1. Stupidity
> >2. Alcohol
> >3. Ignorance
>
> >All without any evidence of such.
>
> Well... They were from New Jersey!

True, true!
 >> Stay informed about: Yet Another Tragic Case...... 

On Nov 30, 1:56 pm, Chuck Gould <chuckgould.ch... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 30, 10:15�am, LoogyPic... RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Nov 30, 12:34 pm, Phant... RemoveThis @nospam.invalid wrote:
>
> > > On Fri, 30 Nov 07, Chuck Gould wrote:
> > > >A boat capsized about five miles from
> > > >shore, killing the three fishermen on board, authorities said
>
> > > No word on what caused the boat to capsize???
>
> > The usual suspects will blame it on
> > 1. Stupidity
> > 2. Alcohol
> > 3. Ignorance
>
> > All without any evidence of such.
>
> There is nothing in the story to indicate alcohol was a factor.
>
> Stupidity? Ignorance?  Maybe extreme........but carelessness can be
> inferred from the fact that they were out in a small boat in the North
> Atlantic, during late November, and not a single one of them thought
> to put on a PFD.

You know, everyone takes a risk once in awhile, and it doesn't make
them necessarily careless. Do you walk around all of the time with a
radioactive proof suit on in case of nuclear fallout? Do you wear
steel toed boots all of the time in case someone or yourself drops
something on your foot?
 >> Stay informed about: Yet Another Tragic Case...... 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Yet Another Tragic Case...... 

Chuck Gould wrote:
> This time it was three guys from NJ.
>
> Apparently they thought the primary purpose of having PFD aboard a
> small boat was to palacate the USCG in case of inspection.
>
> What a shame. Considering wives, kids, friends, coworkers, employers,
> employees, and family members there are maybe hundreds of people
> affected by each of these deaths, so it isn't entirely or solely a
> personal decision.
>
> We can only hope their possibly needless deaths will serve as
> instructional examples
>
> **************************
> Boat capsizes off NJ coast, killing 3; second fatal fishing accident
> since Wednesday
> AP
> Posted: 2007-11-29 20:04:19
> ATLANTIC CITY, N.J. (AP) - A boat capsized about five miles from
> shore, killing the three fishermen on board, authorities said
> Thursday.
>
> The 25-foot pleasure boat carrying the men was reported missing by a
> friend Wednesday night when they didn't return.
>
> The Coast Guard searched through the night for the men using boats, a
> helicopter and a plane. A helicopter crew member using night-vision
> goggles spotted the boat early Thursday and the bodies of Mark Stroud
> and Danny Pavic, both of Galloway.
>
> A salvage crew sent to recover the boat found the body of Jerry
> Berwick, 64, of Philadelphia, inside the cabin Thursday afternoon, the
> Coast Guard said.
>
> Coast Guard Spokesman Nyx Cangemi said that there were life jackets on
> the boat, but that the men were not wearing them. The water
> temperature was about 50 degrees, he said.
>
> Officials were waiting for a medical examiner to identify the body.
>
> The men launched from Oyster Creek and were headed for Little Egg
> Inlet, which is about 10 miles north of where their boat was found.
>
> The search follows another fishing accident Wednesday in which a 72-
> year-old man was killed after being trapped underneath a capsized boat
> in Maurice River Township. Two others survived.
>
> .
>

Here's a local news story on the same accident:

Boat capsizes off Atlantic City, killing three fishermen



The waters off southern New Jersey claimed more lives, and emergency
personnel recovered the bodies Thursday of three fishermen after their
boat, *the Knucklehead,* capsized in the Atlantic Ocean.

The U.S. Coast Guard retrieved the bodies of Danny Pavic, of Galloway
Township, Atlantic County, and Mark Stroud, 45, of Philadelphia, from
the chilly waters about 5 miles off Atlantic City shortly after 1:10
a.m. Thursday.

The body of the third member of their party, Philadelphia resident Jerry
Berwick, was discovered in the cabin of the Knucklehead when it was
righted by a boat-towing company at the scene at about
1 p.m. Thursday.

The Knucklehead was towed Thursday afternoon to Somers Point, where it
was raised out of the water after being pumped dry.

The discovery of the capsized Knucklehead follows a search for Pavic,
Stroud and Berwick that began after friends reported at about 5:45 p.m.
Wednesday that the 25-foot pleasure boat, owned by Stroud, was overdue.
That report caused the Coast Guard to launch helicopters, planes and
boats to look for the men and their craft.

The search that turned up the Knucklehead and its three fishermen was
the second search of the day by the Coast Guard - although it's unclear
whether the first search actually was for the Knucklehead: Coast Guard
spokesman Petty Officer Nyx Cangemi said helicopters were dispatched
Wednesday morning after two boats reported hearing a distress call of,
"May Day, May Day, May Day, we're going down." The distress call was
made on a channel that the Coast Guard normally does not monitor, he said.

Cangemi said the distress call did not include a location, and the Coast
Guard used the positions of the two reporting boats as a base area for
its search. The search turned up nothing, and the distress call isn't
being linked to the Knucklehead, he said. He also said no other vessels
were reported missing or overdue.

The bodies of Pavic and Stroud were brought by boat to the Coast Guard
base in Atlantic City. Atlantic County Medical Examiner Dr. Hydow Park
performed autopsies Thursday afternoon. A spokeswoman for Park's office
said results would be forwarded to the Coast Guard for public release.
Coast Guard officials said the results more likely will be reported to
the State Police Marine Services Bureau.

Berwick's body was brought ashore Thursday afternoon at the Shamrock
Towing yard in Somers Point. An autopsy also is planned to be performed
on his body.

The cause of the boat's capsizing is unknown.

Coast Guard spokesman Petty Officer Christopher McLaughlin said the seas
were running at about three feet and winds were blowing from the west at
about five to 10 knots on Wednesday. "It wasn't like a bad weather day,"
he said.

But McLaughlin said the water temperature was such that "you could get
hypothermia pretty quick."

The water temperature was about 49 degrees off the Steel Pier at noon
Wednesday.

Coast Guard officials said the men weren't wearing lifejackets, but had
them on board the boat.

Tearful members of Stroud's family, gathered in a darkened house they
own on Oyster Creek in Galloway Township, provided little information:
They said Stroud, Pavic and Berwick left Oyster Creek - located about 10
miles north of where the Knucklehead eventually was found - for their
fishing trip at about 6:30 a.m. Wednesday. They wouldn't comment further.

"We don't want publicity," said a woman who identified herself as
Stroud's mother.

Pavic owned the M & M Motel on Route 9 in Galloway Township.

A house in front of the motel had "Closed" and "No Trespassing" signs on
its door. A row of orange highway cones stopped access to the parking
lot in front of the motel's rooms at the back of the property.

People familiar with Pavic said he stayed to himself and had been a
painting contractor for some time.

To e-mail Thomas Barlas at The Press:

TBarlas.RemoveThis@pressofac.com
 >> Stay informed about: Yet Another Tragic Case...... 

<LoogyPicker RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d396adba-f18f-4a2a-a372-bbea93f8a265@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 30, 12:34 pm, Phant... RemoveThis @nospam.invalid wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Nov 07, Chuck Gould wrote:
>> >A boat capsized about five miles from
>> >shore, killing the three fishermen on board, authorities said
>>
>> No word on what caused the boat to capsize???
>
> The usual suspects will blame it on
> 1. Stupidity
> 2. Alcohol
> 3. Ignorance
>
> All without any evidence of such.


Not totally without evidence of #1 or #3.

If NJ has been anything like upstate NY during the past week, it may've been
caused by insane wind surprises, although they shouldn't have come as a
surprise to anyone who checks the weather reports. At this time of year, any
time we're blessed with a warm front for a day or two, it's ALWAYS followed
by raucous wind as the cold front follows, and we end up with falling tree
limbs & other surprises.

Perhaps those guys didn't pay attention to the weather reports. I mean,
*something* caused the boat to capsize. What theories could you suggest?
 >> Stay informed about: Yet Another Tragic Case...... 

"Chuck Gould" <chuckgould.chuck.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:98b13773-8f78-489f-86c6-bdbc77c075bf@a35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 30, 10:15?am, LoogyPic....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 30, 12:34 pm, Phant....TakeThisOut@nospam.invalid wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 30 Nov 07, Chuck Gould wrote:
> > >A boat capsized about five miles from
> > >shore, killing the three fishermen on board, authorities said
>
> > No word on what caused the boat to capsize???
>
> The usual suspects will blame it on
> 1. Stupidity
> 2. Alcohol
> 3. Ignorance
>
> All without any evidence of such.

There is nothing in the story to indicate alcohol was a factor.

Stupidity? Ignorance? Maybe extreme........but carelessness can be
inferred from the fact that they were out in a small boat in the North
Atlantic, during late November, and not a single one of them thought
to put on a PFD. The jackets were apparently all aboard, just as
*required* by the USCG...


++++++++++

Next week's news:

Families of 3 fishermen suing CG, boat mfr and the Atlantic Ocean for
negligence.
 >> Stay informed about: Yet Another Tragic Case...... 

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:51:03 -0500, "Eisboch" <rce.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote:

>I *do* have a problem with mandatory helmet laws. All the arguements about
>beoming a burden to society due to medical costs and increased insurance
>premiums for all just don't hold up under close scrutiny.

Not to take this in a different direction, but I'm of the opinion that
if I am required to wear a seatbelt under the dubious rational that it
will "save" my life and reduce medical costs, then helmets should also
be required along with full leathers and body armor for motorcycle
riders.

The stated rational for seatbelts is BS for a number of reasons, but
the most important is that seatbelt use is over stated and over
reported in vehicle accidents resulting in skewed "safety" statistics.

The same basic stats apply that MC riders use to validate their claim,
by extrapolation, can be used for automobiles.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :>)
 >> Stay informed about: Yet Another Tragic Case...... 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" <email.TakeThisOut@swsports.org> wrote in message
news:svd1l3h8dkfiqj55bulv8ck401rrpq7f7v@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:51:03 -0500, "Eisboch" <rce.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>I *do* have a problem with mandatory helmet laws. All the arguements
>>about
>>beoming a burden to society due to medical costs and increased insurance
>>premiums for all just don't hold up under close scrutiny.
>
> Not to take this in a different direction, but I'm of the opinion that
> if I am required to wear a seatbelt under the dubious rational that it
> will "save" my life and reduce medical costs, then helmets should also
> be required along with full leathers and body armor for motorcycle
> riders.
>
> The stated rational for seatbelts is BS for a number of reasons, but
> the most important is that seatbelt use is over stated and over
> reported in vehicle accidents resulting in skewed "safety" statistics.


Let's consider the opposite: In the subset consisting of people ejected
from their vehicles during an accident, what percentage survive?
 >> Stay informed about: Yet Another Tragic Case...... 

On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 01:32:55 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
<dishborealis RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

>"Short Wave Sportfishing" <email RemoveThis @swsports.org> wrote in message
>news:svd1l3h8dkfiqj55bulv8ck401rrpq7f7v@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:51:03 -0500, "Eisboch" <rce RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I *do* have a problem with mandatory helmet laws. All the arguements
>>>about
>>>beoming a burden to society due to medical costs and increased insurance
>>>premiums for all just don't hold up under close scrutiny.
>>
>> Not to take this in a different direction, but I'm of the opinion that
>> if I am required to wear a seatbelt under the dubious rational that it
>> will "save" my life and reduce medical costs, then helmets should also
>> be required along with full leathers and body armor for motorcycle
>> riders.
>>
>> The stated rational for seatbelts is BS for a number of reasons, but
>> the most important is that seatbelt use is over stated and over
>> reported in vehicle accidents resulting in skewed "safety" statistics.
>
>
>Let's consider the opposite: In the subset consisting of people ejected
>from their vehicles during an accident, what percentage survive?
>
My best Navy buddy didn't when he flipped his car on the DC loop
and it cut his legs off. He was 21. That's when I started wearing a
belt. Aside from that, I found the belt holding me tight behind the
wheel gave me a better sense of control when maneuvering hard.
Not that I did much of that, but a hard corner can move you off
center, especially with a bench seat.

--Vic
 >> Stay informed about: Yet Another Tragic Case...... 

On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 01:32:55 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
<dishborealis.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:

>"Short Wave Sportfishing" <email.TakeThisOut@swsports.org> wrote in message
>news:svd1l3h8dkfiqj55bulv8ck401rrpq7f7v@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:51:03 -0500, "Eisboch" <rce.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I *do* have a problem with mandatory helmet laws. All the arguements
>>>about
>>>beoming a burden to society due to medical costs and increased insurance
>>>premiums for all just don't hold up under close scrutiny.
>>
>> Not to take this in a different direction, but I'm of the opinion that
>> if I am required to wear a seatbelt under the dubious rational that it
>> will "save" my life and reduce medical costs, then helmets should also
>> be required along with full leathers and body armor for motorcycle
>> riders.
>>
>> The stated rational for seatbelts is BS for a number of reasons, but
>> the most important is that seatbelt use is over stated and over
>> reported in vehicle accidents resulting in skewed "safety" statistics.
>
>Let's consider the opposite: In the subset consisting of people ejected
>from their vehicles during an accident, what percentage survive?

If I were a betting man, I would say, proportionally, about the same
as a motorcycle rider's.

However, the more important question is how many major accidents
result in ejection? Probably about the same number as high speed
motorcycle accidents.
 >> Stay informed about: Yet Another Tragic Case...... 

"Vic Smith" <thismailautodeleted.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pse1l3dd7dofiacbopsmtg9ps796pnqsca@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 01:32:55 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
> <dishborealis.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>"Short Wave Sportfishing" <email.RemoveThis@swsports.org> wrote in message
>>news:svd1l3h8dkfiqj55bulv8ck401rrpq7f7v@4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:51:03 -0500, "Eisboch" <rce.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I *do* have a problem with mandatory helmet laws. All the arguements
>>>>about
>>>>beoming a burden to society due to medical costs and increased insurance
>>>>premiums for all just don't hold up under close scrutiny.
>>>
>>> Not to take this in a different direction, but I'm of the opinion that
>>> if I am required to wear a seatbelt under the dubious rational that it
>>> will "save" my life and reduce medical costs, then helmets should also
>>> be required along with full leathers and body armor for motorcycle
>>> riders.
>>>
>>> The stated rational for seatbelts is BS for a number of reasons, but
>>> the most important is that seatbelt use is over stated and over
>>> reported in vehicle accidents resulting in skewed "safety" statistics.
>>
>>
>>Let's consider the opposite: In the subset consisting of people ejected
>>from their vehicles during an accident, what percentage survive?
>>
> My best Navy buddy didn't when he flipped his car on the DC loop
> and it cut his legs off. He was 21. That's when I started wearing a
> belt. Aside from that, I found the belt holding me tight behind the
> wheel gave me a better sense of control when maneuvering hard.
> Not that I did much of that, but a hard corner can move you off
> center, especially with a bench seat.
>
> --Vic


Losing my legs would not fall under my personal definition of survival. But,
I'm funny that way. YMMV
 >> Stay informed about: Yet Another Tragic Case......