Tinned wire

Steve wrote:
> I realize that this might be a prompt for lots of argument but anyway....
>
> I have just started rewiring the 12V side of my boat. While ripping out
> the miles of cable that seemed to power big blobs of ancient insulating
> tape I have noticed that the continued wire seems to have survived well.
> i.e. the boat is 20 years old and the original stuff is which was mainly
> continued is fine. I can see no signs of corrosion even after stripping
> large lengths. The insulation is a different matter in some cases. It is
> in a poor state, especially were it is exposed to heat or sun but that
> is a different issue.
>
> So the question is: Is tinned copper really necessary? It is more than
> twice the price of pure copper and has the same insulation! I am
> prepared for quotes from various recommendations and standards (many of
> which I have read) but what I would really like is some real empirical
> engineering info here. I have been involved in standards bodies and know
> how they work. Good ideas can very easily become mandatory requirements
> because it could be critical in some obscure cases. I was trained as an
> engineer which is to say I can live with the concept of good enough for
> purpose. If the life expectancy of pure copper is half that of tinned
> and tinned will last 30+ years, I can live with having to change the
> wire again in 15 years.
>
> Steve

I had a similarly aged boat and the older wire varied a lot when
removed. Some of the wire was black with corrosion, some was just a
little dull, and some was shiny. More exposed wire, or wire where
wicking from outside fixtures was possible tended to suffer more.

Is tinned wire necessary? Probably not inside the boat for
non-critical systems like cabin lights. For instruments, and
navigation lights I'd say bite the bullet and use tinned wire. But do
shop around. Many makers of tinned wire sell spools of wire for a lot
less than Ancor at the local West Marine! One fellow regularly sells
on ebay.

Oh, on my boat all new wire is going to be tinned. Thankfully the
electrical system currently consists of 4 lights, 2 nav lights
(tricolour and masthead), a VHF, GPS, and depthsounder. It's rather
spartan right now in the electrical department.

Evan Gatehouse
 >> Stay informed about: Tinned wire 

Hello Steve,

You have my sympathy. Getting the quantitative data you're
looking for seems near impossible.

To my understanding, admittedly subject to recalibration,
neither the USCG nor the ABYC standard requires tinned
copper conductors.

The ads often read "our tinned copper wire meets ABYC
standards" suggesting that tinning is part of the standard,
when the conformance reference is technically to stranding,
insulation, and color!

We know that tin oxidizes more slowly than copper, and that
the copper oxides that form when copper corrodes are
non-conductive.

Beyond that, all I can find are anecdotal and largely
unscientific reports, and the "tinned copper reduces
corrosion" mantra.

Good luck

Chuck

Steve wrote:
> I realize that this might be a prompt for lots of argument but anyway....
>
> I have just started rewiring the 12V side of my boat. While ripping out
> the miles of cable that seemed to power big blobs of ancient insulating
> tape I have noticed that the continued wire seems to have survived well.
> i.e. the boat is 20 years old and the original stuff is which was mainly
> continued is fine. I can see no signs of corrosion even after stripping
> large lengths. The insulation is a different matter in some cases. It is
> in a poor state, especially were it is exposed to heat or sun but that
> is a different issue.
>
> So the question is: Is tinned copper really necessary? It is more than
> twice the price of pure copper and has the same insulation! I am
> prepared for quotes from various recommendations and standards (many of
> which I have read) but what I would really like is some real empirical
> engineering info here. I have been involved in standards bodies and know
> how they work. Good ideas can very easily become mandatory requirements
> because it could be critical in some obscure cases. I was trained as an
> engineer which is to say I can live with the concept of good enough for
> purpose. If the life expectancy of pure copper is half that of tinned
> and tinned will last 30+ years, I can live with having to change the
> wire again in 15 years.
>
> Steve
 >> Stay informed about: Tinned wire 

In article <42442a35$1_4@newsfeed.slurp.net>, chuck <chuck.DeleteThis@nospam.net>
wrote:

> We know that tin oxidizes more slowly than copper, and that
> the copper oxides that form when copper corrodes are
> non-conductive.
>
> Beyond that, all I can find are anecdotal and largely
> unscientific reports, and the "tinned copper reduces
> corrosion" mantra.
>
> Good luck
>
> Chuck

also be advised that Copper wire in the presents of Battery Acid fumes
corrodes extremely quickly into copper sulfate, (Blue Powder) and that
doesn't conduct electricity very well at all. The tin plating provides
a good protection from this type of corrosion, the same as it does for
Salt Water vapors.


Bruce in alaska also a retired chemist, from way, way back......
--
add a <2> before @
 >> Stay informed about: Tinned wire 

Good point but unfortunately the only wire of sufficient conductor area
(16+mm^2) I have been able to find that goes anywhere need the batteries
is just untinned copper. In this case I have used welding cable because
it has better insulation than other stuff I have found. I have also
sealed the ends well.

If the stuff I am talking about here (1-2 mm^2 from the dis panel) is
getting battery fumes I am in real trouble!



Bruce in Alaska wrote:
> In article <42442a35$1_4@newsfeed.slurp.net>, chuck <chuck.TakeThisOut@nospam.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>We know that tin oxidizes more slowly than copper, and that
>>the copper oxides that form when copper corrodes are
>>non-conductive.
>>
>>Beyond that, all I can find are anecdotal and largely
>>unscientific reports, and the "tinned copper reduces
>>corrosion" mantra.
>>
>>Good luck
>>
>>Chuck
>
>
> also be advised that Copper wire in the presents of Battery Acid fumes
> corrodes extremely quickly into copper sulfate, (Blue Powder) and that
> doesn't conduct electricity very well at all. The tin plating provides
> a good protection from this type of corrosion, the same as it does for
> Salt Water vapors.
>
>
> Bruce in alaska also a retired chemist, from way, way back......
 >> Stay informed about: Tinned wire 

All,

Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I
am working on at the moment is internal to the boat.

I think I will continue to use the untinned wire (bargains on marine
cable are not common in NZ) but seal the ends as suggested. I am aware
of the issue with fatigue if the copper is too thick and so will use
something with lots of thin strands. I also solder all the small crimp
connectors as well as crimp them which I believe will offer some protection.

For the nav lights (front, back and mast) I an leaving the existing wire
in place as it is tinned and in excellent condition.

Thanks again,

Steve
 >> Stay informed about: Tinned wire 

"Steve" <nospam.TakeThisOut@for.me> wrote in message news:4244d00c$1@clear.net.nz...
> All,
>
> Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I
> am working on at the moment is internal to the boat.
>
> I think I will continue to use the untinned wire (bargains on marine cable
> are not common in NZ) but seal the ends as suggested. I am aware of the
> issue with fatigue if the copper is too thick and so will use something
> with lots of thin strands. I also solder all the small crimp connectors as
> well as crimp them which I believe will offer some protection.

From what I have read, solder and crimping is not a good idea. Soldering is
not neccesary when using a proper crimp connector. Soldering has a number
of drawbacks. A good crimp connection that is sealed against moisture
is about as good as it gets.


> For the nav lights (front, back and mast) I an leaving the existing wire
> in place as it is tinned and in excellent condition.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Steve
 >> Stay informed about: Tinned wire 

Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is
thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would
probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do your
internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat shrink
from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide
protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my battery
cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the heavy
wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink
(and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three
years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them
(did a modification to add additional golf carts).

Scott
"Doug Dotson" <dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom> wrote in message
news:kq6dnRxRnf3hDdjfRVn-sg@cablespeedmd.com...
>
> "Steve" <nospam RemoveThis @for.me> wrote in message news:4244d00c$1@clear.net.nz...
> > All,
> >
> > Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I
> > am working on at the moment is internal to the boat.
> >
> > I think I will continue to use the untinned wire (bargains on marine
cable
> > are not common in NZ) but seal the ends as suggested. I am aware of the
> > issue with fatigue if the copper is too thick and so will use something
> > with lots of thin strands. I also solder all the small crimp connectors
as
> > well as crimp them which I believe will offer some protection.
>
> From what I have read, solder and crimping is not a good idea. Soldering
is
> not neccesary when using a proper crimp connector. Soldering has a number
> of drawbacks. A good crimp connection that is sealed against moisture
> is about as good as it gets.
>
>
> > For the nav lights (front, back and mast) I an leaving the existing wire
> > in place as it is tinned and in excellent condition.
> >
> > Thanks again,
> >
> > Steve
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Tinned wire 

"Sailct41" <sailct41 RemoveThis @adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:V8GdnU_WtsUPBNjfRVn-3g@adelphia.com...
> Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is
> thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would
> probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do
> your
> internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat
> shrink
> from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide
> protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my
> battery
> cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the
> heavy
> wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink
> (and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three
> years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them
> (did a modification to add additional golf carts).
>
> Scott
> "Doug Dotson" <dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom> wrote in message
> news:kq6dnRxRnf3hDdjfRVn-sg@cablespeedmd.com...
>>
>> "Steve" <nospam RemoveThis @for.me> wrote in message news:4244d00c$1@clear.net.nz...
>> > All,
>> >
>> > Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire
>> > I
>> > am working on at the moment is internal to the boat.
>> >

This is an age old discussion that has more aspects than one can easily
comprehend.

First ABYC is down on solder only. It argues that a connection based on
solder alone may fail from heat at some inoppportune moment. So no straight
solder joints.

Crimps are, as is often suggested, very reliable when properly made. How do
you tell if they are properly made? You can't. Only real way to QC the
thing is to section it and check with a microscope. Note that too much
crimp is actually worse than too little. You can pull check a crimp and
eliminate a too little crimp but an over crimp is pretty close to being
undetectable visually. If you have a suitable bridge you might pick it up
by an impedance change but that is going a little far.

It is a very repeatable technique. If you make a good crimp or two the next
10 thousand are virtually certain to be as good. If however the first is
bad....

I know a bit about this after having to change out tens of thousands of
harnesses in the field when bad crimps in the main AC connections were found
on a device.

Soldering a crimp does not weaken the crimp. The concern is that it creates
a hard point up the wire where vibration will cause a stress cracking. I
would think that if carefully limited to the connector barrel by the use of
a suitable heat sink it would lead to a quite suitable connection.
Otherwise you must support the wiring mechanically somewhere back of the
solder.

I personally would crimp, solder with heat sink and use an inch of the
sealing heat shrink to support the connection.

I would also believe that a matched set of connectors and new crimp dies in
the proper tool are equally as good as the above crimp and solder. However
with generic crimping tools (even of the ratchet sort) and WM
connectors...you are on your own.

Calder is interesting on this one. Volume one recommends crimp and solder.
Volume two lists the authorities as believing good crimp is as good or
better than solder.

Jim Donohue
 >> Stay informed about: Tinned wire 

Steve wrote:
> I have noticed that the continued wire seems to have survived well.
> i.e. the boat is 20 years old and the original stuff is which was
mainly
> continued is fine. I can see no signs of corrosion even after
stripping
> large lengths.

Had the 30 year old windspeed meter on my sailboat cease working
recently. Investigation revealed the 60 foot sensor wire had a break
in it somewhere. Connections looked OK. No visual sign of damage, but
cutting it in about the middle revealed black crumbs instead of copper
wire. Turns out entire lengths of the wire had corroded to dust.
Probably had worked so long because it was only handling a half volt or
so AC signal. It was non-tinned and had lousy insulation, sort of like
extension cord wire.

So it can happen, at least in small gage wire.
 >> Stay informed about: Tinned wire 

"Jim Donohue" <jimnews.DeleteThis@donohueteam.com> wrote in message
news:vuI1e.506$ZV5.360@fed1read05...
>
> "Sailct41" <sailct41.DeleteThis@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:V8GdnU_WtsUPBNjfRVn-3g@adelphia.com...
>> Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is
>> thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would
>> probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do
>> your
>> internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat
>> shrink
>> from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide
>> protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my
>> battery
>> cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the
>> heavy
>> wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink
>> (and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three
>> years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them
>> (did a modification to add additional golf carts).
>>
>> Scott
>> "Doug Dotson" <dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom> wrote in message
>> news:kq6dnRxRnf3hDdjfRVn-sg@cablespeedmd.com...
>>>
>>> "Steve" <nospam.DeleteThis@for.me> wrote in message news:4244d00c$1@clear.net.nz...
>>> > All,
>>> >
>>> > Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire
>>> > I
>>> > am working on at the moment is internal to the boat.
>>> >
>
> This is an age old discussion that has more aspects than one can easily
> comprehend.
>
> First ABYC is down on solder only. It argues that a connection based on
> solder alone may fail from heat at some inoppportune moment. So no
> straight solder joints.
>
> Crimps are, as is often suggested, very reliable when properly made. How
> do you tell if they are properly made? You can't. Only real way to QC
> the thing is to section it and check with a microscope. Note that too
> much crimp is actually worse than too little. You can pull check a crimp
> and eliminate a too little crimp but an over crimp is pretty close to
> being undetectable visually. If you have a suitable bridge you might pick
> it up by an impedance change but that is going a little far.

Rather extreme for boat applications.

> It is a very repeatable technique. If you make a good crimp or two the
> next 10 thousand are virtually certain to be as good. If however the
> first is bad....

Buy a good crimper that produces a proper crimp each time. One of the
ratcheting types.

> I know a bit about this after having to change out tens of thousands of
> harnesses in the field when bad crimps in the main AC connections were
> found on a device.

Wow! That's alot of work. How many years have you been doing this?

> Soldering a crimp does not weaken the crimp. The concern is that it
> creates a hard point up the wire where vibration will cause a stress
> cracking. I would think that if carefully limited to the connector barrel
> by the use of a suitable heat sink it would lead to a quite suitable
> connection. Otherwise you must support the wiring mechanically somewhere
> back of the solder.

I seem to recall in an issure of NASA Tech Briefs about 25 years ago that
the
major problems with solder joints had to do with microcracks forming as a
result of thermal cycling resulting in high impedance in the joint. Also,
moisture
can deteriorate via the microcracks assuming the joint is not made moisture
tight.

> I personally would crimp, solder with heat sink and use an inch of the
> sealing heat shrink to support the connection.
>
> I would also believe that a matched set of connectors and new crimp dies
> in the proper tool are equally as good as the above crimp and solder.
> However with generic crimping tools (even of the ratchet sort) and WM
> connectors...you are on your own.
>
> Calder is interesting on this one. Volume one recommends crimp and
> solder. Volume two lists the authorities as believing good crimp is as
> good or better than solder.
>
> Jim Donohue
>
 >> Stay informed about: Tinned wire 

On 27 Mar 2005 18:41:57 -0800, "Mark" <axolotl73.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Investigation revealed the 60 foot sensor wire had a break
>in it somewhere. Connections looked OK. No visual sign of damage, but
>cutting it in about the middle revealed black crumbs instead of copper
>wire. Turns out entire lengths of the wire had corroded to dust.
>Probably had worked so long because it was only handling a half volt or
>so AC signal. It was non-tinned and had lousy insulation, sort of like
>extension cord wire.
>
>So it can happen, at least in small gage wire.

========================================

And larger at times. I once had a similar condition with the shield
braid on a coax cable. Apparently the outer insulation had developed
a pin hole leak allowing moisture to enter. The copper braid in that
section had turned to green powder and was totally non-conductive.

I'd vote for tinned wire if longevity, reliability and low maintenance
are a future concern.
 >> Stay informed about: Tinned wire 

"Mark" <axolotl73 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1111977717.014322.46710@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Steve wrote:
>> I have noticed that the continued wire seems to have survived well.
>> i.e. the boat is 20 years old and the original stuff is which was
> mainly
>> continued is fine. I can see no signs of corrosion even after
> stripping
>> large lengths.
>
> Had the 30 year old windspeed meter on my sailboat cease working
> recently. Investigation revealed the 60 foot sensor wire had a break
> in it somewhere. Connections looked OK. No visual sign of damage, but
> cutting it in about the middle revealed black crumbs instead of copper
> wire. Turns out entire lengths of the wire had corroded to dust.
> Probably had worked so long because it was only handling a half volt or
> so AC signal. It was non-tinned and had lousy insulation, sort of like
> extension cord wire.
>
> So it can happen, at least in small gage wire.

30 year old wire isn't a good example. Most 30 year old people are a bit
corroded inside
 >> Stay informed about: Tinned wire 

Wayne.B <waynebatrecdotboats.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:0bfg41p6uq5e86p14k9vt45kea3ie818so@4ax.com:

> And larger at times. I once had a similar condition with the shield
> braid on a coax cable. Apparently the outer insulation had developed
> a pin hole leak allowing moisture to enter. The copper braid in that
> section had turned to green powder and was totally non-conductive.
>
>

I have never seen a piece of plastic covered coax cable like RG-58 that
DIDN'T have water ingestion if laying in water for any length of time. It
always eats the shield away...salt or not.

If you MUST run coax through the bilge, like to get to the mast, one great
way to prevent ingestion is to run the coax through a piece of nylon water
line, the kind used to hook up the house water source to the ice maker in
the refridgerator, that's just big enough to pass the unconnectored coax
through as a sort of flexible, sealed conduit through the bilgewater area.
Seal it on both ends with 3M 5200 forever. It now has virtually no
airspace to breathe in and condensate water and the water line is
impervious to the oil, grease, gook, amazing biological species and
seawater in the bilge....(c;

Small nylon airhose is also great, but it usually comes in a self-coiling
section, now, not a straight piece like the water line.
 >> Stay informed about: Tinned wire