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Since: Aug 22, 2007 Posts: 5
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(Msg. 16) Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: rec>boats>building (more info?)
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"Lew
> Polyester/roving produces a rather brittle, heavy laminate.
> Epoxy/knitted glass produces a more ductile, lighter weight laminate.
> Pound for pound, polyester and woven roving cost less per pound, but
> you use more pounds, so the cost differences tend to disappear.
> Epoxy, knitted glass and a 1/2" Airex foam core would produce a very
> light weight, bullet proof, dinghy or kayak.
> Just remember three things.
>
> 1)You will buy a commercial dinghy for less money than you will spend
> to build one.
> 2)You build one because you want to do it.
> 3)Once you use epoxy and knitted glass, you will never consider
> polyester again.
Lew is right on every particular. >> Stay informed about: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? |
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Since: Aug 08, 2007 Posts: 12
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(Msg. 17) Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> Lew is right on every particular.
Yes... but. Lew's Knitted glass - when bought in 'roll' quantites is
about a dollar-a-pound more expensive than woven roving. Traditional
thinking is that woven fabric is used primarily with fiberglass 'mat'
in a polyester layup, one between the other. The basic reason for
this is that the woven, i.e. "over, under, repeat" nature of the w.r.
causes "hollows" where the 'high' strands cross-over the 'low' strands
of glass. The mat (in addition to providing significant bulk, and
sucking up a lot of resin) is thought to "tie" the woven layers
together, by bridging these 'hollows.'
Now, in a large epoxy resin layup one can significantly reduce the
cost, while maintaining adequate strength by continuing to use woven-
roving. The mat is forsaken in favor of a slurry of milled fibers and
a little cab-o-sil mixed to a 'light cream' consistency. That is,
layer of w.r. wet out with straight epoxy. Squeege. Trowel in a
slurry of epoxy / milled fibers / cab-o-sil, then next layer of w.r.
Finish wet-out with straight epoxy. Squeege. Repeat.
The milled fiber + cab-o-sil slurry is filling the hollows and
providing a tie for the next layer of woven fabric. A 10 lb bag of
cab-o-sil is like way cheap, and will last the entire project. A 50
lb bag of milled fibers is similarly inexpensive.
And, becuase we've eliminated the mat, resin-to-glass ratio's of 50 /
50 are easily achived.
So, in a large project where cost is a concern my belief is that one
ought not write-off woven roving as being a suitable material.
MW >> Stay informed about: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003 Posts: 132
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(Msg. 18) Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:01 am
Post subject: Re: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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<mike.e.worrall.RemoveThis@abc.com> wrote:
> > Lew is right on every particular.
>
> Yes... but. Lew's Knitted glass - when bought in 'roll' quantites
is
> about a dollar-a-pound more expensive than woven roving.
Traditional
> thinking is that woven fabric is used primarily with fiberglass
'mat'
> in a polyester layup, one between the other. The basic reason for
> this is that the woven, i.e. "over, under, repeat" nature of the
w.r.
> causes "hollows" where the 'high' strands cross-over the 'low'
strands
> of glass. The mat (in addition to providing significant bulk, and
> sucking up a lot of resin) is thought to "tie" the woven layers
> together, by bridging these 'hollows.'
>
> Now, in a large epoxy resin layup one can significantly reduce the
> cost, while maintaining adequate strength by continuing to use
woven-
> roving. The mat is forsaken in favor of a slurry of milled fibers
and
> a little cab-o-sil mixed to a 'light cream' consistency. That is,
> layer of w.r. wet out with straight epoxy. Squeege. Trowel in a
> slurry of epoxy / milled fibers / cab-o-sil, then next layer of w.r.
> Finish wet-out with straight epoxy. Squeege. Repeat.
>
> The milled fiber + cab-o-sil slurry is filling the hollows and
> providing a tie for the next layer of woven fabric. A 10 lb bag of
> cab-o-sil is like way cheap, and will last the entire project. A 50
> lb bag of milled fibers is similarly inexpensive.
>
> And, becuase we've eliminated the mat, resin-to-glass ratio's of 50
/
> 50 are easily achived.
>
> So, in a large project where cost is a concern my belief is that one
> ought not write-off woven roving as being a suitable material.
About the only thing missing from the above is a little spit and some
baling wire.
Lew >> Stay informed about: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? |
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Since: May 20, 2007 Posts: 35
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(Msg. 19) Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 20:31:45 -0000, koosvander.RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote stuff
and I replied:
That;s not quite correct. Polyester dissolves some foams; notably
styrene. PVC foam and urethane foam are not affected. PVC foam is the
best for strength and longevity, but not cheap. It can also be used to
make compound (smooth) lines with a little effort.
>> Epoxy resins don't dissolve foam but I believe polyester resins do.
>> Your options would seem to be a small boat or a puddle of foam goo.
>>
>> paul oman
>> progressive epoxy polymers
>
>
>Very good! That's helps me with that question.
>
>Anyone with suggestions on alternate plans, dinghy or kayak with
>smooth lines?
>
>Thanks,
>-Koos.
Human bevaviour: Bestiality with a brain >> Stay informed about: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? |
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Since: May 20, 2007 Posts: 35
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(Msg. 20) Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:58:39 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
<lewhodgett DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote stuff
and I replied:
>
>"Richard Casady" writes:
>
>> Did you know that you seem to have posted three copies of the same
>> message?
>
>After the fact, yes.
>
>It was my problem.
>
>Lew
Hey! If you mean what you say, get out there and _say_ it, man! <G>
Human bevaviour: Bestiality with a brain >> Stay informed about: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? |
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Since: Jun 13, 2006 Posts: 29
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(Msg. 21) Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Lew Hodgett" <lewhodgett.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13ckbnb7pk4o1f7@corp.supernews.com...
> <koosvander.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What are the relative merits of polyester resin vs epoxy resin?
>
> Trying to compare polyester and woven roving to epoxy and knitted
> glass is like trying to compare oranges and apples.
>
> Both are "fiberglass" laminates, but the similarity ends there.
>
> About the best you get is 35%glass/65%resin using woven roving, mat,
> and polyester.
>
> OTOH, it is quite common to get a 50%glass/50%resin using knitted
> glass and epoxy. This laminate does not require any mat.
>
> Bottom line....................
>
> Polyester/roving produces a rather brittle, heavy laminate.
>
> Epoxy/knitted glass produces a more ductile, lighter weight laminate.
>
> Pound for pound, polyester and woven roving cost less per pound, but
> you use more pounds, so the cost differences tend to disappear.
>
> Epoxy, knitted glass and a 1/2" Airex foam core would produce a very
> light weight, bullet proof, dinghy or kayak.
>
> Just remember three things.
>
> 1)You will buy a commercial dinghy for less money than you will spend
> to build one.
>
> 2)You build one because you want to do it.
>
> 3)Once you use epoxy and knitted glass, you will never consider
> polyester again.
>
I have never actually built anything with fg, but have done numerous
repairs.
I have always used woven cloth with epoxy, and haven't heard the term
"knitted" before.
A google search showed it was the same as unidirection fabric. Is that
correct, or is knitted something else? >> Stay informed about: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003 Posts: 132
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(Msg. 22) Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Toller" wrote:
> I have never actually built anything with fg, but have done numerous
> repairs.
> I have always used woven cloth with epoxy, and haven't heard the
term
> "knitted" before.
> A google search showed it was the same as unidirection fabric. Is
that
> correct, or is knitted something else?
Woven fabric looks like a burlap bag, a very coarse weave.
Knitted fabric looks like suit fabric, very fine, tightly knitted
fabric.
Do a Google for Knytex, then DB170.
That will get you to a double bias (+/-45), 17 oz/sq yard material.
It is about all I use these days.
There are also what are known as "Uni" fabrics which have the fiber
oriented either 0 or 90 degrees to the run of the roll.
Lew >> Stay informed about: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? |
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Since: Sep 29, 2007 Posts: 5
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(Msg. 23) Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:45 am
Post subject: Re: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Knitted glass consists of two or more layers of unidirectional glass which
are knitted together. It's available with the glass at 0 and 90 degrees and
with the glass at +-45 degrees. It is less expensive per pound than glasss
fabric. Because the fibers are not crimped by weaving, it's stronger and,
for a given glass content, thinner and therefore it needs less epoxy to
fill. So, for structural purposes, it's superior to mat & roving and to
cloth. It often does not finish as smooth as cloth, so a top laminate of
cloth is a good way to finish .
"Toller" <Toller.TakeThisOut@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:wfjEi.15491$ya1.531@news02.roc.ny...
>
> "Lew Hodgett" <lewhodgett.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:13ckbnb7pk4o1f7@corp.supernews.com...
>> <koosvander.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What are the relative merits of polyester resin vs epoxy resin?
>>
>> Trying to compare polyester and woven roving to epoxy and knitted
>> glass is like trying to compare oranges and apples.
>>
>> Both are "fiberglass" laminates, but the similarity ends there.
>>
>> About the best you get is 35%glass/65%resin using woven roving, mat,
>> and polyester.
>>
>> OTOH, it is quite common to get a 50%glass/50%resin using knitted
>> glass and epoxy. This laminate does not require any mat.
>>
>> Bottom line....................
>>
>> Polyester/roving produces a rather brittle, heavy laminate.
>>
>> Epoxy/knitted glass produces a more ductile, lighter weight laminate.
>>
>> Pound for pound, polyester and woven roving cost less per pound, but
>> you use more pounds, so the cost differences tend to disappear.
>>
>> Epoxy, knitted glass and a 1/2" Airex foam core would produce a very
>> light weight, bullet proof, dinghy or kayak.
>>
>> Just remember three things.
>>
>> 1)You will buy a commercial dinghy for less money than you will spend
>> to build one.
>>
>> 2)You build one because you want to do it.
>>
>> 3)Once you use epoxy and knitted glass, you will never consider
>> polyester again.
>>
> I have never actually built anything with fg, but have done numerous
> repairs.
> I have always used woven cloth with epoxy, and haven't heard the term
> "knitted" before.
> A google search showed it was the same as unidirection fabric. Is that
> correct, or is knitted something else?
> >> Stay informed about: Polyester vs Epoxy resin for dinghy/kayak construction? |
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