Plan copyright infringment

OT message for Peggy Hall.

Peggy, could you please contact me direct...

Brian Cleverly (to reply direct, add an ell after the name cee)

Peggie Hall wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions
>> on the plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?
>
>
> Only if you publish the revised plan as your own. You can do anything
> you want to for personal use only...copyright does not carry an
> obligation to "follow the directions exactly." If it did, just about
> every cook in the world would be guilty of copyright infringement...'cuz
> I don't know of anyone who's capable of doing more in the kitchen than
> making toast who hasn't "improved" or substituted ingredients in recipes
> in copyrighted cookbooks...not always successfully, though.
>
> Which raises a point: are you sure the structure called for in the plan
> will support a larger hull?
>
 >> Stay informed about: Plan copyright infringment 

Bill wrote:
> Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions on the
> plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?

Only if you publish the revised plan as your own. You can do anything
you want to for personal use only...copyright does not carry an
obligation to "follow the directions exactly." If it did, just about
every cook in the world would be guilty of copyright infringement...'cuz
I don't know of anyone who's capable of doing more in the kitchen than
making toast who hasn't "improved" or substituted ingredients in recipes
in copyrighted cookbooks...not always successfully, though.

Which raises a point: are you sure the structure called for in the plan
will support a larger hull?

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304
 >> Stay informed about: Plan copyright infringment 

At what point does it cease to be the original design and become a new
design for copyright purposes?
Is it the construction method, the shape of the pieces, the way it goes
together?

I'm not trying to cause problems or steal another's work, I'm just asking
questions.

Bill

"Bill" <ibhere RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hYidnQiF3oMaCpDYnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions on
> the plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?
>
 >> Stay informed about: Plan copyright infringment 

The issue is not so much whether the finished boat matches the plans
as whether the same boat, whatever the final product looks like, could
have been built without access to the plans. If you used the plans
as guidance to build the boat, and have the warm, sly, feeling that
you saved their cost by changing a few things, it's copyright
infringement.

If you paid for the plans and want to make it bigger or smaller few
architects are going to bother you unless there is something specific
in the sale agreement (if any) or on the plans prohibiting that.

--

Roger Long



"Bill" <ibhere RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hYidnQiF3oMaCpDYnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions
> on the plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?
>
 >> Stay informed about: Plan copyright infringment 

> "Bill" <ibhere DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:hYidnQiF3oMaCpDYnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions on
>> the plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?
>>

"Roger Long" <rwlong DeleteThis @maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:bXBPg.46754$uH6.37913@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> The issue is not so much whether the finished boat matches the plans as
> whether the same boat, whatever the final product looks like, could have
> been built without access to the plans. If you used the plans as
> guidance to build the boat, and have the warm, sly, feeling that you saved
> their cost by changing a few things, it's copyright infringement.
>
> If you paid for the plans and want to make it bigger or smaller few
> architects are going to bother you unless there is something specific in
> the sale agreement (if any) or on the plans prohibiting that.

Roger -- I am curious. Other than contract language in a sales agreement,
what could possibly bar the buyer of a set of plans from making any
modification he wants when he builds a boat? Certainly copyright law would
not have any bearing; that simply bars the duplication of the plans
(typically for profit or for use by someone else; making a backup of a set
of plans on CD for yourself would normally be considered "fair use.")

If I buy plans for a 14-foot skiff and decide to make it 18 feet long, add
an outrigger and carve a mermaid on the bow, it may be ugly and unseaworthy,
but to my knowledge all the original designer could do is grimace or grin.
Of course, I probably couldn't call it a "14-foot Bolger" or whoever
designed it, but that's a different matter.

Your thoughts?

Alex
 >> Stay informed about: Plan copyright infringment 

"Alex" <tuchasoffentisch.DeleteThis@_NO_SPAM_gmail.com>

> Roger -- I am curious. Other than contract language in a sales
> agreement,

That's what I said, "other than contract language in a sales
agreement". This is virtually unheard of and I can think of a case.
For a very special boat that the architect wanted to be sure exactly
reflected his intent, a plans buyer could be asked to sign a separate
document binding him to make no unapproved changes. Without that, the
builder can do anything he wants.

I have heard of cases where the designer insisted that his name be
removed from the design for purposed of sales because it was so
bastardized.

If you get a set of plans from your buddy who built a boat, just
changing a few, or even a lot of, things does not relieve you of the
obligation to pay the designer for their use.

--

Roger Long
 >> Stay informed about: Plan copyright infringment 

Roger, just asking a question here, but if I look at a set of plans a buddy
built from, then look at 3 or 4 other sets of plans, then using ideas from
ALL sources I've looked at, who do I pay for the use of plans?

There is no one single person whose plans I used completely, but took parts
of perhaps 4 different sets of plans - am I required to pay everyone?

Please understand Roger, I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just asking
for info.

Thanks,

Ken H>

"Roger Long" <rwlong.DeleteThis@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:xCQPg.54306$8j3.13426@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> "Alex" <tuchasoffentisch.DeleteThis@_NO_SPAM_gmail.com>
>
>> Roger -- I am curious. Other than contract language in a sales agreement,
>
> That's what I said, "other than contract language in a sales agreement".
> This is virtually unheard of and I can think of a case. For a very special
> boat that the architect wanted to be sure exactly reflected his intent, a
> plans buyer could be asked to sign a separate document binding him to make
> no unapproved changes. Without that, the builder can do anything he
> wants.
>
> I have heard of cases where the designer insisted that his name be removed
> from the design for purposed of sales because it was so bastardized.
>
> If you get a set of plans from your buddy who built a boat, just changing
> a few, or even a lot of, things does not relieve you of the obligation to
> pay the designer for their use.
>
> --
>
> Roger Long
>
>
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Plan copyright infringment 

There are always gray areas where theory and practice diverge. In
theory, if you just look at a plan with a proprietary notice in the
title block, you should pay something for the use of anything in it is
incorporated in a boat. In practice, if you are just getting ideas
from the plans and then build a boat that is different from any of
them, nobody is going to ask you for money or be upset with you. Much
of what is on any set of plans came to the architect from other people
and other plans anyway.

However, if you clearly used the information in one or more of the
plans that is specific to what makes that boat unique and individual,
and it was clearly essential to your boat turning out the way that it
did, you should pay for the plans.

--

Roger Long



"BellSouth" <nospam RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5smQg.13166$GY5.1539@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> Roger, just asking a question here, but if I look at a set of plans
> a buddy built from, then look at 3 or 4 other sets of plans, then
> using ideas from ALL sources I've looked at, who do I pay for the
> use of plans?
>
> There is no one single person whose plans I used completely, but
> took parts of perhaps 4 different sets of plans - am I required to
> pay everyone?
>
> Please understand Roger, I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just
> asking for info.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken H>
>
> "Roger Long" <rwlong RemoveThis @maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:xCQPg.54306$8j3.13426@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>> "Alex" <tuchasoffentisch RemoveThis @_NO_SPAM_gmail.com>
>>
>>> Roger -- I am curious. Other than contract language in a sales
>>> agreement,
>>
>> That's what I said, "other than contract language in a sales
>> agreement". This is virtually unheard of and I can think of a case.
>> For a very special boat that the architect wanted to be sure
>> exactly reflected his intent, a plans buyer could be asked to sign
>> a separate document binding him to make no unapproved changes.
>> Without that, the builder can do anything he wants.
>>
>> I have heard of cases where the designer insisted that his name be
>> removed from the design for purposed of sales because it was so
>> bastardized.
>>
>> If you get a set of plans from your buddy who built a boat, just
>> changing a few, or even a lot of, things does not relieve you of
>> the obligation to pay the designer for their use.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Roger Long
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Plan copyright infringment 

Bill <ibhere.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote:
: Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions on the
: plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?

I'm not a lawyer, but I would guess that if you buy a set of plans, you can
make changes to it as you build the boat. If you go look at the home plan
websites, you'll see they sell changeable (printed on mylar or vellums) plans
for more $'s than the regular plan (the changables are eraseable so you can
make your changes and you then copy them). I'm not sure if a similar process
is available for boat plans.

I believe you are committed to 1 boat per set purchased though...

--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)
 >> Stay informed about: Plan copyright infringment 

Bill,

Thanks for the note. Glad my words/thoughts were appreciated.

While I'm not sure about canoe's, it isn't just the overall percentage
difference. The important part is HOW you locate that difference.

I have a set of STOCK plans from a well-known designer. It was a larger
version of an earlier boat. {Most likely offered because of 'customer
demand'}Neither was 'new' so probably 100's had already been sold.
IMMEDIATELY after opening them & and looking them over . . . 'something'
seemed 'wrong'. I couldn't put my finger on it, but they just didn't
look right/smooth. {Bare in mind, although my background is engineering,
I am NOT a Naval Architect. Nor do I use 'Hulls', or any other such
program.

If memory serves, it was a multi-chine hull with a skiff-type 'pointy
bow', as opposed to the 'transom bow' of a pram-type. Because of the
forward shape, the panels had an asymmetrical curve. There was NO WAY
the curve could be achieved fairly with the indicated 'plot points'
{Station Locations}. Or maybe it was just something I had missed. {At
this point I had not yet lofted the plans.}I felt foolish, but I wrote
to the designer, and 'asked' if he had missed a 'plot point'. I received
a note back, from his firm - not directly from him. Enclosed was a
segment of a new plan . . . with the MISSING point NOW indicated.

MY guess is that the plans were 'computer generated' and the length
changed by just 'stretching' the fore part of the design. However,
'somebody' didn't think . . . and didn't bother to re-calculate the
station positions !! I often wonder how many people bought these plans
and built boats from them - either an awful mess or given up in
frustration !!

One of my 'anal' habits is to make a copy of any new plan. I then cut-up
the plan, mount the 'parts' on some heavy 'poster board' and make a
'plan scale' model. This gives me an idea how the boat will look - in 3
dimensions - , give me a feel for any building problems, and show up any
errors I may have missed. {I them make ANOTHER copy to take into the
shop . . . NEVER originals}.

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop



"Bill" <ibhere.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hYidnQiF3oMaCpDYnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions on
the
> plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Plan copyright infringment 

Bill writes:

> Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions
> on the plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?

No one in this thread seems to understand that US copyrights do not protect
designs, only the *expressions* in the plan documents themselves. You can
make your own drawings of the same design, modify the design, build the
design, etc., without regard to copyrights.

Anyone can build a boat in any design they like, including copying existing
designs. The fact that someone drew a design on paper doesn't stop you
from building something.

Copyrights simply do not apply to utilitarian objects. Boats, cars,
houses, furniture, clothes, etc.
 >> Stay informed about: Plan copyright infringment