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External
Since: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 13
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:55 pm
Post subject: Kayaking power
Archived from groups: rec>boats>paddle>touring, others (more info?)
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Hey there, sorry for the cross-post!
I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
(force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
kayaking or canoeing.
The obvious problem with kayaking and canoeing, is that the paddle has
no fixed pivot point, like a rowing shell does. So most likely some
sort of video kinematic analysis will be necessary. We have the
capability to set this up, although I think the physics will be
complicated (i.e. statically indeterminant problem). I've done a search
of the scientific journal literature (Medline) and haven't found any
published papers on this topic, but that doesn't mean the work hasn't
been done at some National training center, or product development
center somewhere... or that it's in a very obscure journal that Medline
doesn't cover.
I'd appreciate any thoughts or hints on who might have done this sort of
work in the past. I'd rather not re-invent the wheel, if I can maybe
work on just improving it! 
Thanks,
Kieran Coghlan |
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External
Since: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Kieran wrote:
> Hey there, sorry for the cross-post!
>
> I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
> (force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
> wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
> like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
> be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
> the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
> wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
> kayaking or canoeing.
>
> The obvious problem with kayaking and canoeing, is that the paddle has
> no fixed pivot point, like a rowing shell does. So most likely some
> sort of video kinematic analysis will be necessary. We have the
> capability to set this up, although I think the physics will be
> complicated (i.e. statically indeterminant problem). I've done a search
> of the scientific journal literature (Medline) and haven't found any
> published papers on this topic, but that doesn't mean the work hasn't
> been done at some National training center, or product development
> center somewhere... or that it's in a very obscure journal that Medline
> doesn't cover.
google back on RSR just a couple months, someone posted
a link to a E. Euro site that did some technique vids for
kayaking - maybe there are links from there, I didn't save the link.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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External
Since: Aug 01, 2004
Posts: 21
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Kieran wrote:
> I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
> (force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
> wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
> like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
> be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
> the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
> wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
> kayaking or canoeing.
If you just want average power generated then you could use some of the
test and model data from Sea Kayaker magazine in their kayak test
reports that shows the drag force of each boat model at various speeds.
Combine this with measured speeds of paddlers in races and it should
give an idea of the effective paddling power.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Kayaking power |
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External
Since: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Kieran wrote:
> I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
> (force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
> wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
> like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
> be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
> the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
> wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
> kayaking or canoeing.
For swimming, one method I know of consists of a line with floats
attached to it in a pool. The swimmer then pushes his hands against the
floats with each stroke and the power for each stroke is then measured
in the floats IIRC. There ought to be a better description of this on
the web. Another method might be to just drag a kayak with a line
accross the water at paddling speed and measure the force needed to do
this, but I suspect you want some more detailed measurements. Maybe you
can combine this with a videocamera.
greetings,
Michiel<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Kayaking power |
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External
Since: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 13
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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M.C.D. Roos wrote:
> For swimming, one method I know of consists of a line with floats
> attached to it in a pool. The swimmer then pushes his hands against the
> floats with each stroke and the power for each stroke is then measured
> in the floats IIRC. There ought to be a better description of this on
> the web. Another method might be to just drag a kayak with a line
> accross the water at paddling speed and measure the force needed to do
> this, but I suspect you want some more detailed measurements. Maybe you
> can combine this with a videocamera.
>
> greetings,
> Michiel
Thanks for the reply...
Yes, we've used the towing technique for determining work done by
swimmers, and have applied it to kayaks, we're also familiar with the
pushing bouys (and submerged paddles) for swimmers... but I want a more
direct measurement of the forces at the blade and the hands. Hoping to
possibly also apply this to an inverse dynamics solution of joint
reaction forces at the shoulder.
-Kieran<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Kayaking power |
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External
Since: Sep 04, 2003
Posts: 18
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:55:31 GMT, Kieran <kc_news RemoveThis @sonic.net> wrote:
>Hey there, sorry for the cross-post!
>
>I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
>(force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
>wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
>like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
>be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
>the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
>wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
>kayaking or canoeing.
>
Kayaking is an Olympic sport, and every such sport has a wide range of
technical work done. You might get in touch with a college with a
kayaking program, or the US Olympic or Junior Olympic teams.
Seems like an opportunity for some synergy.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Kayaking power |
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External
Since: Feb 27, 2005
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:37 am
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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The most recent and comprehensive work of this kind that I am aware of
is a phd thesis from the Technical University of Denmark:
Determination of Transient Loads on Anisotrophic Paddleshafts,
issn 0903-1685, 1994.
It is in Danish, with a summary in English.
Kieran wrote:
> Hey there, sorry for the cross-post!
>
> I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
> (force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
> wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
> like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews
to
> be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers
on
> the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
> wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done
on
> kayaking or canoeing.
>
> The obvious problem with kayaking and canoeing, is that the paddle
has
> no fixed pivot point, like a rowing shell does. So most likely some
> sort of video kinematic analysis will be necessary. We have the
> capability to set this up, although I think the physics will be
> complicated (i.e. statically indeterminant problem). I've done a
search
> of the scientific journal literature (Medline) and haven't found any
> published papers on this topic, but that doesn't mean the work hasn't
> been done at some National training center, or product development
> center somewhere... or that it's in a very obscure journal that
Medline
> doesn't cover.
>
> I'd appreciate any thoughts or hints on who might have done this sort
of
> work in the past. I'd rather not re-invent the wheel, if I can maybe
> work on just improving it!
>
> Thanks,
> Kieran Coghlan<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Kayaking power |
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External
Since: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 157
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:35 am
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Why not measure the HR of the engine? I've read that the well trained
athelete can output something in the neighborhood of 1/4 HP. All the
variables of measuring the work accomplished would not change the power
rating of the motor, if it is power you are after! TnT >> Stay informed about: Kayaking power |
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External
Since: Feb 27, 2005
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:48 am
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Why not put a strain gauge on the paddle shaft just below the paddler's
hand. This would give you the moment at that point, so the force would be
the moment divided by the distance between the strain gauge and the centroid
of the paddle blade. >> Stay informed about: Kayaking power |
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External
Since: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 281
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:08 am
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Gary S." <Idontwantspam@net> wrote in message
news:a302219k6l2f3of20r6u8d4m1m7tbsb7su@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:55:31 GMT, Kieran <kc_news.RemoveThis@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>>Hey there, sorry for the cross-post!
>>
>>I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
>>(force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
>>wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
>>like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
>>be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
>>the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
>>wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
>>kayaking or canoeing.
>>
> Kayaking is an Olympic sport, and every such sport has a wide range of
> technical work done. You might get in touch with a college with a
> kayaking program, or the US Olympic or Junior Olympic teams.
>
> Seems like an opportunity for some synergy.
>
Wasn't there an extensive conversation here a few years back (maybe 3 or 4)
from someone who was doing his PhD thesis on this? IIRC, he had lots of data
and graphs showing where in the stroke the power was applied, and was
looking at bentshaft vs straight shaft paddles, depth of the blade, angle of
the shaft, etc. He was doing work in a pool, with sensors, flow meters, and
the like. The conversation might have branched out into different hull
materials, different types of boats, etc.
--riverman<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Kayaking power |
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External
Since: Mar 17, 2004
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:08 am
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Dec 22, 2004
Posts: 92
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Excuse me for my stupidity . . . How about a spring scale on a boat
and the paddler paddling with comparable strain to what would be a
normal paddle effore for an hour watch the weight and average it. For
the strain at the hand use the same scale or replace it with a preasure
scale ( bathroom scale ) and again replicate the average paddle strokes
preasure.
Just a thought.
Or if you are good at math you can nick someone elses work.
Sorry, Kieran; I am that simple .
Alex McGruer >> Stay informed about: Kayaking power |
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External
Since: Sep 04, 2003
Posts: 18
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 27 Feb 2005 06:35:50 -0800, "Tinkerntom" <tnksng DeleteThis @qwest.net> wrote:
>Why not measure the HR of the engine? I've read that the well trained
>athelete can output something in the neighborhood of 1/4 HP. All the
>variables of measuring the work accomplished would not change the power
>rating of the motor, if it is power you are after! TnT
Different muscle groups may output different amounts of energy/power,
whatever the potential of the CV system.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Kayaking power |
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External
Since: Feb 27, 2005
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Kieran" <kc_news.DeleteThis@sonic.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:nK2Ud.65307$8a6.4571@trndny09...
> Hey there, sorry for the cross-post!
>
> I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
> (force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
> wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
> like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
> be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
> the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
> wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
> kayaking or canoeing.
>
> The obvious problem with kayaking and canoeing, is that the paddle has
> no fixed pivot point, like a rowing shell does. So most likely some
> sort of video kinematic analysis will be necessary. We have the
> capability to set this up, although I think the physics will be
> complicated (i.e. statically indeterminant problem). I've done a search
> of the scientific journal literature (Medline) and haven't found any
> published papers on this topic, but that doesn't mean the work hasn't
> been done at some National training center, or product development
> center somewhere... or that it's in a very obscure journal that Medline
> doesn't cover.
>
> I'd appreciate any thoughts or hints on who might have done this sort of
> work in the past. I'd rather not re-invent the wheel, if I can maybe
> work on just improving it!
>
> Thanks,
> Kieran Coghlan
Look for
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.fes-sport.de/kanu.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fes-sport.de/kanu.htm</a>
But I am not sure how much of their work is published
Eberhard<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Kayaking power |
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External
Since: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 13
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:46 am
Post subject: Re: Kayaking power [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Peter wrote:
>
>
> If you just want average power generated then you could use some of the
> test and model data from Sea Kayaker magazine in their kayak test
> reports that shows the drag force of each boat model at various speeds.
> Combine this with measured speeds of paddlers in races and it should
> give an idea of the effective paddling power.
>
Actually, we want direct measurement of force through the paddle,
applied by the paddler. This way, we can not only determine the overall
power, but also do an inverse dynamics analysis of the joint forces in
the paddler's arm and shoulder.
-Kieran<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Kayaking power |
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