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Since: Aug 15, 2007 Posts: 3
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:42 am
Post subject: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Including His Own Son, Asbury Park Press, 8/14/07 Archived from groups: rec>sport>swimming, others (more info?)
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CONTROVERSIAL MANEUVER: Heimlich's claim that his famous procedure can
save near-drowning victims is disputed by many, including his own son
by Michael Riley, Staff Writer, Asbury Park Press, August 14, 2007
---
Dr. Henry Heimlich has saved countless lives through the procedure
that bears his name.
"It's an invaluable tool for choking victims," says Dr. Howard
Rubinstein, the Emergency Care Center director at Riverview Medical
Center in Red Bank.
"I've seen it save lives, going back to when I was an EMT," he says.
There's is no dispute that since the time Dr. Henry Heimlich described
the series of abdominal thrusts to dislodge an object from the throat
in a 1974 article in the Journal of American Medicine, people have
used the procedure to rescue those rendered helpless by an obstruction
in their trachea.
"It's simple physics," says Rubenstein. "Exerting pressure upward from
the diaphragm compresses the lungs and forces an object out."
One would think that such a simple, valuable procedure would not spark
controversy, but it has and that controversy started with Heimlich
himself, who has recommended the use of the procedure for near-
drowning victims.
That makes no sense, according to Rubenstein.
"Typically, there is very little water in a drowning victim's lungs.
The throat closes up before water gets into the lungs. Drowning
victims usually die of asphyxiation not water in the lungs, so the
Heimlich maneuver would be of no use and could actually do damage to
the body," he says.
According to Rubenstein, Heimlich also has advocated his maneuver to
help asthma victims and those with cystic fibrosis, although no
reputable medical authorities believe it will help in those cases
either.
"I respect Dr. Heimlich," says Rubenstein, "but I believe his claims
for the maneuver beyond aiding choking victims are simply
overreaching."
So does the Red Cross.
In fact, according to Leo Pratte, Director of Disaster Services for
the Jersey Coast Chapter of the American Red Cross, the Red Cross has
not referred to abdominal thrusts as the Heimlich Maneuver for years.
"It is a legal issue," Pratte says. "We'd owe Heimlich money for
calling it that."
When it comes to aiding a choking victim, he says, the Red Cross
counsels the following course of action:
Give five back blows and if the object is not forced out, then give
five quick upward abdominal thrusts. Continue sets of back blows and
abdominal thrusts until object is forced out, the person can breathe
or cough forcefully. If the person becomes unconscious, perform CPR.
Between giving 30 compressions and two breaths look for an object and
remove it if one is seen.
Pratte points out that if a choking victim falls to the floor, he or
she should be considered unconscious, even if awake.
The issue of giving near-drowning victims abdominal thrusts is still a
matter of some controversy.
"Research continues," Pratte says. "but none of the major
organizations (that) train lifeguards, including the Boy Scouts, the
YMCA and the Red Cross recommend using abdominal thrusts. Even if the
victim has water in the lungs, there's no way of knowing how little or
how much, and time spent doing that is time not spent on CPR,
including chest compressions, which will accomplish the same thing."
Heimlich's son, Peter, has long been waging a campaign against his
father's insistence that the maneuver has uses apart from aiding
choking victims.
"The maneuver for drowning is a bizarre 30-year scam that had deadly
consequences. His only evidence was a handful of cases in which
drowning victims were allegedly saved by the maneuver. Our research
uncovered that the cases are dubious at best, fraud at worst. When
doctors have asked my father to provide details, he comes up
empty...." says Peter Heimlich. "Except for the maneuver for choking,
all of my father's theories have been thoroughly discredited as
useless and dangerous."
Copyright © 2007 Asbury Park Press. All rights reserved. >> Stay informed about: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Includ.. |
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Since: Aug 18, 2007 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:06 am
Post subject: Re: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Including His Own Son, Asbury Park Press, 8/14/07 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Why does Red Cross still teach back blows on adults when no one else does?
"schwartz" <NOSPAMschwartzNOSPAM.RemoveThis@wistex.every1.net> wrote in message
news:1187181768.146877.279470@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
CONTROVERSIAL MANEUVER: Heimlich's claim that his famous procedure can
save near-drowning victims is disputed by many, including his own son
by Michael Riley, Staff Writer, Asbury Park Press, August 14, 2007
---
Dr. Henry Heimlich has saved countless lives through the procedure
that bears his name.
"It's an invaluable tool for choking victims," says Dr. Howard
Rubinstein, the Emergency Care Center director at Riverview Medical
Center in Red Bank.
"I've seen it save lives, going back to when I was an EMT," he says.
There's is no dispute that since the time Dr. Henry Heimlich described
the series of abdominal thrusts to dislodge an object from the throat
in a 1974 article in the Journal of American Medicine, people have
used the procedure to rescue those rendered helpless by an obstruction
in their trachea.
"It's simple physics," says Rubenstein. "Exerting pressure upward from
the diaphragm compresses the lungs and forces an object out."
One would think that such a simple, valuable procedure would not spark
controversy, but it has and that controversy started with Heimlich
himself, who has recommended the use of the procedure for near-
drowning victims.
That makes no sense, according to Rubenstein.
"Typically, there is very little water in a drowning victim's lungs.
The throat closes up before water gets into the lungs. Drowning
victims usually die of asphyxiation not water in the lungs, so the
Heimlich maneuver would be of no use and could actually do damage to
the body," he says.
According to Rubenstein, Heimlich also has advocated his maneuver to
help asthma victims and those with cystic fibrosis, although no
reputable medical authorities believe it will help in those cases
either.
"I respect Dr. Heimlich," says Rubenstein, "but I believe his claims
for the maneuver beyond aiding choking victims are simply
overreaching."
So does the Red Cross.
In fact, according to Leo Pratte, Director of Disaster Services for
the Jersey Coast Chapter of the American Red Cross, the Red Cross has
not referred to abdominal thrusts as the Heimlich Maneuver for years.
"It is a legal issue," Pratte says. "We'd owe Heimlich money for
calling it that."
When it comes to aiding a choking victim, he says, the Red Cross
counsels the following course of action:
Give five back blows and if the object is not forced out, then give
five quick upward abdominal thrusts. Continue sets of back blows and
abdominal thrusts until object is forced out, the person can breathe
or cough forcefully. If the person becomes unconscious, perform CPR.
Between giving 30 compressions and two breaths look for an object and
remove it if one is seen.
Pratte points out that if a choking victim falls to the floor, he or
she should be considered unconscious, even if awake.
The issue of giving near-drowning victims abdominal thrusts is still a
matter of some controversy.
"Research continues," Pratte says. "but none of the major
organizations (that) train lifeguards, including the Boy Scouts, the
YMCA and the Red Cross recommend using abdominal thrusts. Even if the
victim has water in the lungs, there's no way of knowing how little or
how much, and time spent doing that is time not spent on CPR,
including chest compressions, which will accomplish the same thing."
Heimlich's son, Peter, has long been waging a campaign against his
father's insistence that the maneuver has uses apart from aiding
choking victims.
"The maneuver for drowning is a bizarre 30-year scam that had deadly
consequences. His only evidence was a handful of cases in which
drowning victims were allegedly saved by the maneuver. Our research
uncovered that the cases are dubious at best, fraud at worst. When
doctors have asked my father to provide details, he comes up
empty...." says Peter Heimlich. "Except for the maneuver for choking,
all of my father's theories have been thoroughly discredited as
useless and dangerous."
Copyright © 2007 Asbury Park Press. All rights reserved. >> Stay informed about: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Includ.. |
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Since: Aug 18, 2007 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Including His Own Son, Asbury Park Press, 8/14/07 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"ALLEN SHEPZ" <fixaheart.RemoveThis@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:xoAxi.534$4K6.321@trnddc02...
> Why does Red Cross still teach back blows on adults when no one else
> does?
They don't. I don't know where that idea comes from, but if you take
the CPR and First Aid courses offered by the Red Cross, this isn't what
they teach. The back blows are for infants only, otherwise abdominal
thrusts - at least that's my memory of all this at the moment. I know
they revised the course a year or three ago and I may be remembering the
old procedure and not the new - don't recall if this changed or not.
-S-
> "schwartz" <NOSPAMschwartzNOSPAM.RemoveThis@wistex.every1.net> wrote in message
> news:1187181768.146877.279470@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> CONTROVERSIAL MANEUVER: Heimlich's claim that his famous procedure can
> save near-drowning victims is disputed by many, including his own son
>
> by Michael Riley, Staff Writer, Asbury Park Press, August 14, 2007
>
> ---
>
> Dr. Henry Heimlich has saved countless lives through the procedure
> that bears his name.
>
> "It's an invaluable tool for choking victims," says Dr. Howard
> Rubinstein, the Emergency Care Center director at Riverview Medical
> Center in Red Bank.
>
> "I've seen it save lives, going back to when I was an EMT," he says.
>
> There's is no dispute that since the time Dr. Henry Heimlich described
> the series of abdominal thrusts to dislodge an object from the throat
> in a 1974 article in the Journal of American Medicine, people have
> used the procedure to rescue those rendered helpless by an obstruction
> in their trachea.
>
> "It's simple physics," says Rubenstein. "Exerting pressure upward from
> the diaphragm compresses the lungs and forces an object out."
>
> One would think that such a simple, valuable procedure would not spark
> controversy, but it has and that controversy started with Heimlich
> himself, who has recommended the use of the procedure for near-
> drowning victims.
>
> That makes no sense, according to Rubenstein.
>
> "Typically, there is very little water in a drowning victim's lungs.
> The throat closes up before water gets into the lungs. Drowning
> victims usually die of asphyxiation not water in the lungs, so the
> Heimlich maneuver would be of no use and could actually do damage to
> the body," he says.
>
> According to Rubenstein, Heimlich also has advocated his maneuver to
> help asthma victims and those with cystic fibrosis, although no
> reputable medical authorities believe it will help in those cases
> either.
>
> "I respect Dr. Heimlich," says Rubenstein, "but I believe his claims
> for the maneuver beyond aiding choking victims are simply
> overreaching."
>
> So does the Red Cross.
>
> In fact, according to Leo Pratte, Director of Disaster Services for
> the Jersey Coast Chapter of the American Red Cross, the Red Cross has
> not referred to abdominal thrusts as the Heimlich Maneuver for years.
>
> "It is a legal issue," Pratte says. "We'd owe Heimlich money for
> calling it that."
>
> When it comes to aiding a choking victim, he says, the Red Cross
> counsels the following course of action:
>
> Give five back blows and if the object is not forced out, then give
> five quick upward abdominal thrusts. Continue sets of back blows and
> abdominal thrusts until object is forced out, the person can breathe
> or cough forcefully. If the person becomes unconscious, perform CPR.
> Between giving 30 compressions and two breaths look for an object and
> remove it if one is seen.
>
> Pratte points out that if a choking victim falls to the floor, he or
> she should be considered unconscious, even if awake.
>
> The issue of giving near-drowning victims abdominal thrusts is still a
> matter of some controversy.
>
> "Research continues," Pratte says. "but none of the major
> organizations (that) train lifeguards, including the Boy Scouts, the
> YMCA and the Red Cross recommend using abdominal thrusts. Even if the
> victim has water in the lungs, there's no way of knowing how little or
> how much, and time spent doing that is time not spent on CPR,
> including chest compressions, which will accomplish the same thing."
>
> Heimlich's son, Peter, has long been waging a campaign against his
> father's insistence that the maneuver has uses apart from aiding
> choking victims.
>
> "The maneuver for drowning is a bizarre 30-year scam that had deadly
> consequences. His only evidence was a handful of cases in which
> drowning victims were allegedly saved by the maneuver. Our research
> uncovered that the cases are dubious at best, fraud at worst. When
> doctors have asked my father to provide details, he comes up
> empty...." says Peter Heimlich. "Except for the maneuver for choking,
> all of my father's theories have been thoroughly discredited as
> useless and dangerous."
>
>
> Copyright © 2007 Asbury Park Press. All rights reserved.
>
> >> Stay informed about: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Includ.. |
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Since: Aug 15, 2007 Posts: 3
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:08 am
Post subject: Re: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Including His Own Son, Asbury Park Press, 8/14/07 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Alan Shepz:
> > Why does Red Cross still teach back blows on adults when no one else does?
Steve Freides:
> They don't. I don't know where that idea comes from, but if you take the CPR and First Aid courses offered by the Red >Cross, this isn't what they teach. The back blows are for infants only, otherwise abdominal thrusts - at least that's my >memory of all this at the moment.
You're both wrong on all counts.
1) Per the Asbury Park Press article and numerous other recent
articles, in early 2006 the Red Cross began teaching backblows as the
first response for choking adults and children.
2) For decades, the European Resuscitation Council, which teaches
first aid to most of the world outside of the US, has been teaching
the backblows followed by abdominal thrusts protocol for choking
rescue.
3) Now that the American Red Cross has followed suit, the only leading
first aid organization in the world that doesn't teach that backblows
should be the first response for choking is the Canadian Red Cross.
Therefore Alan Shepz's question is accurately restated as: "Why does
Canadian Red Cross still teach back blows on adults when no one else
does?" >> Stay informed about: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Includ.. |
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Since: Jun 01, 2007 Posts: 12
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Including His Own Son, Asbury Park Press, 8/14/07 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Gee-zeus, none of you guys are defining yer terms. The original
article cited by Schwartz, "CONTROVERSIAL MANEUVER ... by Michael
Riley", dustinguishes between two different complaints: choking and
drowning. You are batting arguments back and forth about which
protocol is appropriate, without ever specifying which complaint yer
addressing, or even acknowleging the fact that there is a *different*
generally-accepted protocol for each of those complaints. Mostly, yer
addressing the *choking* issue, despite the fact that it is OT in a
forum where addressing the *drowning* issue would be expected.
Yer arguments will never make any sense until you preface them with
"for drowning ..." or "for choking ...". Meanwhile, yer just flaming
in vain.
But thanks, for, you know, adding to the general aura of light and
clarity we're accustomed to seeing in r.b.p these days!
-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
======================================================================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
.. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
.. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
.. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
.. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
====================================================================== >> Stay informed about: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Includ.. |
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Since: Aug 26, 2007 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:06 am
Post subject: Re: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Including His Own Son, Asbury Park Press, 8/14/07 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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schwartz wrote:
> Alan Shepz:
>>> Why does Red Cross still teach back blows on adults when no one
>>> else does?
>
They don't anymore as far as I know and most instructors I worked with in
the past let the class know that this method was probably not a good idea.
ARC stubbornly refused to teach the method for many years and the compromise
finally reached included the back blows and omission of the word Heimlich
when referring to it.
> Steve Freides:
>> They don't. I don't know where that idea comes from, but if you take
>> the CPR and First Aid courses offered by the Red >Cross, this isn't
>> what they teach. The back blows are for infants only, otherwise
>> abdominal thrusts - at least that's my >memory of all this at the
>> moment.
>
> You're both wrong on all counts.
>
> 1) Per the Asbury Park Press article and numerous other recent
> articles, in early 2006 the Red Cross began teaching backblows as the
> first response for choking adults and children.
That is simply not true. The ARC was teaching backblows in 1957 (my first
class) and before. They refused to allow the Heimlich for many years after
it became standard.
It works. Backblows don't without the aid of gravity and it is hard to hold
an adult upside down.
Inhale some liver (eaten without teeth in) and try it.
Without references 2 and 3 are suspect based on the inane comments above
about ARC starting in 2006 to teach them.
>
> 2) For decades, the European Resuscitation Council, which teaches
> first aid to most of the world outside of the US, has been teaching
> the backblows followed by abdominal thrusts protocol for choking
> rescue.
>
> 3) Now that the American Red Cross has followed suit, the only leading
> first aid organization in the world that doesn't teach that backblows
> should be the first response for choking is the Canadian Red Cross.
> Therefore Alan Shepz's question is accurately restated as: "Why does
> Canadian Red Cross still teach back blows on adults when no one else
> does?" >> Stay informed about: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Includ.. |
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Since: Aug 15, 2007 Posts: 3
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Including His Own Son, Asbury Park Press, 8/14/07 [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> That is simply not true. The ARC was teaching backblows in 1957 (my first class) and before. They refused to allow
> the Heimlich for many years after it became standard.
No, you're wrong on all counts.
In 1976, two years after the HM was introduced in 1974, the ARC
included it in choking rescue guidelines as a secondary procedure if
backblows failed. In 1986, they dropped backblows. For the next 20
years, the ARC taught the Heimlich-only protocol for choking adults
and children.
> Without references 2 and 3 are suspect based on the inane comments above about ARC starting in 2006 to teach >them.
Besides being wrong, you're also lazy. Why not Google before you type?
Here's a search using keywords "Heimlich," "abdominal thrust," and
"Red Cross" which will lead you to numerous newspaper articles about
the 2006 Red Cross update: http://tinyurl.com/2use22
Don't believe all those articles? Contact your local Red Cross
affiliate. >> Stay informed about: Heimlich's Drowning Rescue Claims Disputed by Many, Includ.. |
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