"Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions

Glenn, one BTU = one pound of water raised/lowered one degree. therefore, a
case of 24 bottles of 16 ounces each lowered 40 degrees takes 960 BTU's
removal. That is about 6 hours net effective running time for a standard
marine reefer using about 5 amps.

now, add in a couple of soda's, five pounds of fish, some hamburger, some
cheese, some milk, etc.

now freeze some of that. keep in mind that each pound of water lowered from 40
to 32 takes another 8 Bthu's, changing from 32 water to 32 ice takes 144 Btu's,
lowering from 32 ice to 10* ice takes another 22 Btu's.

keep in mind that 10* won't keep ice cream solid.
 >> Stay informed about: "Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions 

careful, Glenn, the "heat removal" figure you see listed for marine reefers are


a.) TOTAL heat removal *****including****** the heat added by the compressor
(in other words NOT the heat removed from the ice box), and

b.) **IF** you believe the cooling figures given you ALSO believe you can make
26 pounds of ice per 8 hours and use just 70 amps to do it.

75 pounds of ice per day?????????? On a total of 9 amps per hour?????????

those are the figures you quote below. Really. Sound like you have a cruising
income source ready at hand. just buy a Briggs and Stratton engine
(HarborFreight.com) for a couple hundred, and a used alternotor from an auto
junk yard for fifty bucks and start churning ice you can sell to other cruiser.
Sell them the canvas bags to carry all that ice back to their boats and make
some extra money as well.

N. Bruce Nelsen did a number on ya, Glenn. Sorry.

  >Actually $1,000 of vacuum panels will just about completely insulate my 4.5
 >cu. ft. freezer to R50 and ajoining 7 cu. ft. fridge to R28. (Plus another
 >R12 for the iso sheets that I am wrapping the panels in.)
 >
 >Why think six packs??? I am thinking in the case range. A case of brew
 >takes 750 BTUs to get it from dock side 80F to whistle wetting 40F. That
 >was built into my calculations from the start along with another 800 BTUs
 >for opening and closing the box to get to the beer. No insulation is going
 >to help that. But the base heat gain without adding anything or opening at
 >an ambient temperature of 95F with vacuum insulation will be about 2,300
 >BTUs. Total load right at 3,800 BTUs worst case. That is about 8 hours
 >and 70 amp hours on a BD50F compressor. I don't have room for more than 2"
 >of insulation so foam would increase the heat load to about 6,400 BTUs plus
 >the 1,550 BTU beer load.. That would be 14 hours and 110 amp hours on a
 >BD50.
 >
 >To add enough foam insulation to equal the vacuum panels would increase the
 >volume of my box by about 40 cu. ft. Considering that the interior volume
 >of my boat will cost about $60/ cu.ft. not counting my labor, saving 40 cu.
 >ft. is worth more than twice what the vacuum insulation will cost.
 >--
 >Glenn Ashmore
 >
 >I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
<font color=purple> >there of) at: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.rutuonline.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.rutuonline.com</font</a>>
<font color=purple> >Shameless Commercial Division: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</font</a>>
 >
 >"JAXAshby" <jaxashby RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message
 >news:20041123202204.06500.00000662@mb-m22.aol.com...
  >> Glen, I was trying to say that $1,000 a square foot "vacuum" panels don't
 >stand
  >> up to close scientific scrutny. Buy 'em as is your wish.
  >>
  >> btw, have you checked just how much cooling power is required to chill a
 >air
  >> temp six-pack or two as compared to how much cooling power is required to
  >> remove heat passed into the reefer from the outside. hint: the difference
 >in
  >> total BTU's of cooling required is almost nothing when comparing R-4 with
 >R-8,
  >> and is virtually nothing when comparing R-8 with R-100. It ain't the heat
  >> going through the side that gets you, it is the heat you put into the
 >reefer in
  >> the form of food.
  >>
  >> something N. Bruce Nelsen kinda neglects to make mention of.
  >>
  >> but if you feel you want to hug P. T. Barnum, have at it.
  >>
   >> >Jax, you still don't understand the principle that it is better to keep
 >your
   >> >mouth shut and have people think you are stupid than opening it and
   >> >confirming the fact.
   >> >
   >> >Most vacuum panels are filled with Instil, an inert open celled silica
 >based
   >> >foam board from Dow. It has a crush strength of about 50 PSI, well above
   >> >the 14.7 atmospheric pressure, and an R value at standard pressure of
 >about
   >> >5. At 1 milibar vacuum the R value is about 25 and at .1 milibar it is
   >> >about 30. Glacier Bay uses a special reinforced aerogel material called
   >> >Nanogel made by Cabot (the Cabosil people) with an R value at standard
   >> >pressure of about 15. While the bare material is extremely delicate its
   >> >latticework structure makes it very strong under even compression. At 10
   >> >milibar the R value is about 30 and at .1 milibar it is about 50. The
 >curve
   >> >of vacuum to R value is flatter with Nanogel than with Instil. The
 >obvious
   >> >advantage is that as the panel loose vacuum the Nanogel will maintain
 >more
   >> >insulation value. The disadvantage is that Nanogel is much more
 >expensive
   >> >and harder to work with.
   >> >
   >> >The problem with all vacuum insulation is that it is impossible to
   >> >maintained a high vacuum with a low conductivity flexible membrane. Air
   >> >molecules will slowly find a way in. Back in the 80s
   >> >a vacuum panel made of a stainless envelope packed with precipitated
 >silica
   >> >was popular in refrigerated containers and some high end European
   >> >refrigerators. It was only effective in large sizes because the steel
   >> >conducted a lot of heat around the edges. In the mid 90s Toyo and Dupont
   >> >developed films consisting of several layers of various UHMW plastics
 >coated
   >> >with a very thin layer of aluminum that made smaller panels practical and
   >> >easier to fabricate. Those films have been greatly improved over the
 >last 5
   >> >years. Around the same time SAES introduced a room temperature getter
   >> >material to absorb stray gas molecules and packages it in small
 >inexpensive
   >> >pucks to be inserted in the panels.
   >> >
   >> >The net result is that you can reasonably expect 10 to 15 years of R
 >values
   >> >better than 25 per inch from almost any well constructed vacuum
 >insulation
   >> >panel. The Glacier Bay Panels will last about 30% longer and have the
   >> >distinct advangate of maintaining a reasonable level of insulation even
 >with
   >> >no vacuum. The down side is that they are about twice as expensive.
   >> >Regardless, marine refrigerators made with vacuum insulation should be
 >built
   >> >with the need to eventually replace the panels in mind. I am counting on
 >8
   >> >to 10 years and will probably replace them even if they are still
 >reasonably
   >> >effective. At the present rate of improvement by then the technology
 >will
   >> >be far better and the prices significantly lower.
   >> >
   >> >BTW, you should NOT use two part pour in place foam to fill gaps between
   >> >vacuum panels. Two part foams produce a lot of heat as they cure. The
   >> >vacuum panels are so effective that they will trap the heat and possibly
   >> >damage the plastic film. Moisture curing spray foam like Great Stuff is
 >a
   >> >lot safer.
   >> >
   >> >
   >> >--
   >> >Glenn Ashmore
   >> >
   >> >I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
<font color=brown>   >> >there of) at: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.rutuonline.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.rutuonline.com</font</a>>
<font color=brown>   >> >Shameless Commercial Division: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</font</a>>
   >> >
   >> >"JAXAshby" <jaxashby RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message
   >> >news:20041123075715.15947.00001094@mb-m02.aol.com...
   >> >> Rusty, you take measurements for a living, but are not a design eng. a
   >> >couple
   >> >> of things to make note of:
   >> >>
   >> >> 1.) "shiney" is shiney from both sides, as far as radiation is
 >concerned.
   >> >> shiney out or shiney in, same same.
   >> >>
   >> >> 2.) shiney on the outside does NOT make for greater (or lesser)
   >> >conductivity
   >> >> or convectivity. shiney on the outside makes for reflection of the
   >> >radiant
   >> >> heat **from the outside** (where heat is in a reefer system). shiney
 >on
   >> >the
   >> >> inside means some of the radiant heat is absorbed on the way through
 >the
   >> >> insulation (makes for warmer insulation) and then is reflected back
 >into
   >> >the
   >> >> insulation where some of it is also absorbed (making for even warmer
   >> >> insulation).
   >> >>
   >> >> 3. You, Rusty, sound like a shill for N. Bruce Nelsen of Glacier Bay, a
   >> >man who
   >> >> over the years has made one hell of a lot of claims that don't stand
 >close
   >> >> examination.
   >> >>
   >> >> 4.) "vacuum" panels are not vacuum at all, but rather are panels with a
   >> >plastic
   >> >> latice inside (to hold the sides of the panel apart) with much, but by
 >no
   >> >> means all, of the air removed. (air pressure is 14.7 pounds PER SQUARE
   >> >INCH,
   >> >> so a 1 square foot panel encasing a true vacuum would have over 2,000
   >> >pounds
   >> >> pressure trying to collapse the sides.
   >> >>
   >> >
   >> >
   >> >
   >> >
   >> >
   >> >
   >> >
   >> >
  >>
  >>
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions 

people who want refrigeration are willing to convince themselves of anything.

brokers in the Caribbean use the term "ice assisted" in the context of
commenting on refrigeration in any boat they have for sale. There is a reason
they use that term.

 >Depends on what you mean by commercial. Commercial freezer rooms usually
 >have galvanized sheet steel because it is rugged, cheap and can take abuse.
 >Commercial refrigerators have stainless interiors because it is rugged and
 >easier to clean. Neither have anything to do with the insulation. The
 >insulation is provided by 4 to 8" of urethane or in more modern boxes
 >isocyanurate foam.
 >
 >Marine refrigerators used to have stainless liners because it was rugged,
 >easy to clean and easy to fabricate in custom shapes. Now they have off
 >white injection molded polystyrene liners because it is rugged, easy to
 >clean, and cheap. They also add minimally to the insulation value because
 >they don't conduct as well as steel.
 >
 >--
 >Glenn Ashmore
 >
 >I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
<font color=purple> >there of) at: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.rutuonline.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.rutuonline.com</font</a>>
<font color=purple> >Shameless Commercial Division: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</font</a>>
 >
 >"JAXAshby" <jaxashby RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message
 >news:20041123202543.06500.00000664@mb-m22.aol.com...
  >> btw, commercial ice boxes always have an shiny ss liner and/or outside.
 >It
  >> works, at least in the commercial reefer environment.
  >>
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions 

Jax,

This is going to be my last responce because it is pretty obvious that you
have no idea what you are talking about, twist my statements and make
rediculous assumptions.

First, A normal can of beer is 12 ounces. Not 16. Tall boys are no good
on boats because they get warm before you can drink them all.

Second, I am allowing 6 beers a day for a crew of 4. That is more than most
prudent skippers will allow. Especially with hard liquor sundowners and
night caps. BTW, that 800 BTU buffer includes 400 BTUs for making
enough ice for those cocktails and 90% of the frozen provisions will be
frozen before they get to the boat. Now before you go saying that two
pounds of ice is not enough consider that a 8 oz cocktail glass will hold
about .2 pounds of ice so that is enough for 10 drinks.

Third, I should have mentioned that the design temperature used to calculate
my heat gain for the box is 40F and the freezer is 0F. That is good enough
to keep ice cream. Besides, with my belt size I don't need much ice cream.
OTOH, I don't wear speedos.

Now, as to refrigeration performance figures. We went through this two
years ago and I am not going to get sucked into another interminable debate
so I will leave it with the following statement which I have verified with
the chairman of the ASHRAE standards committee.. Performance
specifications, be they COP, EER or ASHRAE capacity are based the NET heat
removed. It does NOT include heat generated in the process.

You are almost correct on the 75 pounds of ice assuming the system is set up
do do nothing but freeze ice with a constant supply of water moving across
the plates so that the heat is removed efficiently. But it is more like 90
pounds. A BD50F at 3,000 RPM and a plate temperature of -5F has an ASHRAE
capacity rating of 166 Watts. Times 3.413 we get 566 BTUs/hour or about
13,000 BTUs/day. The current draw is 7.4 amps or 177 amp hours. That is a
COP of 1.87 and an EER of about 6.3. That is about the same as a modern
110VAC hermetic compressor.

You make the assumption that all compressor manufacturers are lying about
theyr specifications. If that were true no refrigeration designer would
ever be able to build a refrigerator that would work the way it was supposed
to. .

--.
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
 >> Stay informed about: "Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions 

Rusty O wrote:
 >
 > He also mentioned the foil faced air bubble plastic material. He said the
 > manufactuers of this product have not been able to prove that it has any
 > real 'R' value of any kind. The salesmen even suggested a good use would be
 > to stuff it in your shoes to keep your feet dry. He refuses to distribute
 > this product for these reasons.
The "foil faced air bubble products Do work in some applications. I have
a 200x65 ft building with a shingle roof and the bubble wrap product
underneath it, and it DOES keep the radiant heat from the sun off of the
roof sheathing (the temp on the inside of the sheathing is about 40deg f
below a neighboring roof without it. Having said that, it probably
wouldn't help a fridge unless you set it in the sun.
 >
 > Rusty O
 >
 >


--
""War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing
is worth war is much worse."
    John Stewart Mill


I strongly urge everyone reading this to check out <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://WWW.anysoldier.us," target="_blank">WWW.anysoldier.us,</a>
and support our troops with a letter, a package or a donation.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions 

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is. Lie
to yourself as to what that price is all you want, for you want the reefer and
you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, in the corporate world of ordinary finance you would have been sent to
the loading dock to see if it is raining outside.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Ignore the realities, because you want the reefer.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

 >From: "Glenn Ashmore" gashmore RemoveThis @cox.net
 >Date: 11/24/2004 10:10 AM Eastern Standard Time
 >Message-id: <dv1pd.3558$wa1.2148@lakeread04>
 >
 >Jax,
 >
 >This is going to be my last responce because it is pretty obvious that you
 >have no idea what you are talking about, twist my statements and make
 >rediculous assumptions.
 >
 >First, A normal can of beer is 12 ounces. Not 16. Tall boys are no good
 >on boats because they get warm before you can drink them all.
 >
 >Second, I am allowing 6 beers a day for a crew of 4. That is more than most
 >prudent skippers will allow. Especially with hard liquor sundowners and
 >night caps. BTW, that 800 BTU buffer includes 400 BTUs for making
 >enough ice for those cocktails and 90% of the frozen provisions will be
 >frozen before they get to the boat. Now before you go saying that two
 >pounds of ice is not enough consider that a 8 oz cocktail glass will hold
 >about .2 pounds of ice so that is enough for 10 drinks.
 >
 >Third, I should have mentioned that the design temperature used to calculate
 >my heat gain for the box is 40F and the freezer is 0F. That is good enough
 >to keep ice cream. Besides, with my belt size I don't need much ice cream.
 >OTOH, I don't wear speedos.
 >
 >Now, as to refrigeration performance figures. We went through this two
 >years ago and I am not going to get sucked into another interminable debate
 >so I will leave it with the following statement which I have verified with
 >the chairman of the ASHRAE standards committee.. Performance
 >specifications, be they COP, EER or ASHRAE capacity are based the NET heat
 >removed. It does NOT include heat generated in the process.
 >
 >You are almost correct on the 75 pounds of ice assuming the system is set up
 >do do nothing but freeze ice with a constant supply of water moving across
 >the plates so that the heat is removed efficiently. But it is more like 90
 >pounds. A BD50F at 3,000 RPM and a plate temperature of -5F has an ASHRAE
 >capacity rating of 166 Watts. Times 3.413 we get 566 BTUs/hour or about
 >13,000 BTUs/day. The current draw is 7.4 amps or 177 amp hours. That is a
 >COP of 1.87 and an EER of about 6.3. That is about the same as a modern
 >110VAC hermetic compressor.
 >
 >You make the assumption that all compressor manufacturers are lying about
 >theyr specifications. If that were true no refrigeration designer would
 >ever be able to build a refrigerator that would work the way it was supposed
 >to. .
 >
 >--.
 >Glenn Ashmore
 >
 >I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
<font color=purple> >there of) at: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.rutuonline.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.rutuonline.com</font</a>>
<font color=purple> >Shameless Commercial Division: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</font</a>>
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions 

 >You are almost correct on the 75 pounds of ice...

 >But it is more like 90
 >pounds.

Glenn, have you EVER actually talked to ---------------> ANY
<------------------------------ cruiser even in his wildest dreams __claims___
ninety frickin' pounds of ice per day? How about making a single pound of ice
in less than 4 hours? 8 hours? 16 hours? 24 hours?

dream on, Glenn, because you want the reefer and you will pay whatever the cost
is. Whatever the cost is.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions 

Jax, you still don't have a clue.

By now.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.rutuonline.com" target="_blank">http://www.rutuonline.com</a>
Shameless Commercial Division: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.spade-anchor-us.com" target="_blank">http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</a>

"JAXAshby" <jaxashby.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041124191842.22097.00001380@mb-m06.aol.com...
  > >You are almost correct on the 75 pounds of ice...
 >
  > >But it is more like 90
  > >pounds.
 >
 > Glenn, have you EVER actually talked to ---------------> ANY
 > <------------------------------ cruiser even in his wildest dreams
__claims___
 > ninety frickin' pounds of ice per day? How about making a single pound of
ice
 > in less than 4 hours? 8 hours? 16 hours? 24 hours?
 >
 > dream on, Glenn, because you want the reefer and you will pay whatever the
cost
 > is. Whatever the cost is.
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions 

maybe, maybe not. However, I do understand cost accounting, a term you never
heard of, let alone understand.

I also know what a BTU is, and know there is no frickin' way in hell *you* are
going to produce a pound of ice in 18 minutes in that expensive abortion you
are putting together.

glenn, you want the reefer whatever the cost is. Just admit it you don't care
if the cost is $10 a day or $30 a day. You want, therefore you spend.

Hate to tell you this, Glenn, but a cold brew in a 5 star shoreside bar is
cheaper than out of your reefer. but you want the reefer whatever the cost is.

complain all you want about my knowledege, glenn, but *you* would get tossed
from a corporate financial meeting before the first cup of coffee cooled to
drinking temp.

you want the reefer whatever the cost is.

enjoy, but stop claiming your reefer diety is the God of The Universe.

you want the reefer whatever the cost is.

just admit it and go on.


 >From: "Glenn Ashmore" gashmore DeleteThis @cox.net
 >Date: 11/24/2004 8:10 PM Eastern Standard Time
 >Message-id: <kiapd.3605$wa1.1047@lakeread04>
 >
 >Jax, you still don't have a clue.
 >
 >By now.
 >
 >--
 >Glenn Ashmore
 >
 >I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
<font color=purple> >there of) at: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.rutuonline.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.rutuonline.com</font</a>>
<font color=purple> >Shameless Commercial Division: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</font</a>>
 >
 >"JAXAshby" <jaxashby DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
 >news:20041124191842.22097.00001380@mb-m06.aol.com...
   >> >You are almost correct on the 75 pounds of ice...
  >>
   >> >But it is more like 90
   >> >pounds.
  >>
  >> Glenn, have you EVER actually talked to ---------------> ANY
  >> <------------------------------ cruiser even in his wildest dreams
 >__claims___
  >> ninety frickin' pounds of ice per day? How about making a single pound of
 >ice
  >> in less than 4 hours? 8 hours? 16 hours? 24 hours?
  >>
  >> dream on, Glenn, because you want the reefer and you will pay whatever the
 >cost
  >> is. Whatever the cost is.
  >>
  >>
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions 

 >Jax, you still don't have a clue.
 >

Really, Glenn? But I am not the one with $18,000 dollars stuck into a reefer
system that requires me to run the engine for three hours a day.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions 

That is so far off that I just have to reply. I am not doing this as a
rebuttal to your asinine comments but for the benefit of those lurkers who
might be interested in the thought process.

The TOTAL cost of my refrigeration system is a little under $4K including
the vacuum insulation, separate keel cooled compressors for the freezer and
refrigerator, custom made double sealed lids with solid surface tops and the
materials for the cabinet work. Under the worst case load it will consume
about 90 amp hours. My alternator produces 270 amps and the battery bank is
a little over 800 amp hours so the average charge time required for
refrigeration will be about 20 minutes assuming no output from the solar
panels.

If you want to consider ALL the cost of the batteries, alternators, 3 stage
regulator and solar panels as exclusively used for refrigeration add another
$3K. But that is not really fair because refrigeration is only 1/3 of my
energy budget. A fair figure for the total cost of my refrigeration system
is about $5K.

If I were really considering this project on a cost accounting basis I would
not own a boat in the first place but money in excess of that required to
survive comfortably is useless unless you can have some fun with it. But
lets give a little cost accounting a try and see what happens. To estimate
the real cost of the system we need to make some assumptions. First we
amortize the capital costs. Let's assume over an economic life of 10 years
at the end of which an additional $3,000 will be required to refit the
mechanical parts and vacuum panels. Assuming an average use of 120 days a
year that works out to about $4.40/day including opportunity cost of the
capital at 6%.

Now let's consider the operating costs. Two unshaded 150 watt solar panels
in the tropics should be expected to optimally produce about 160 amp hours
of charge. But things are never optimal so to be conservative we will
assume only 25% or 40 amp hours (that is average. Not every day.) so the
engine must provide the remaining 50 amp hours or about 12 minutes of run
time. From a separate calculation of engine expenses that includes capital
costs, overhauls, oil, general maintenance and fuel at $4/gallon over the
service live, that is about $1.20 ignoring the 5 gallons of water that will
be produced at the same time and the value of any forward progress the boat
makes.. For good measure, lets throw in another $360/year reserve for
repairs. So the total cost of the system can be conservatively estimated at
about $6.60/day. Obviously not as good as the $.60 to $1.00 a day that a
home refrigerator cost but about the middle of the cost range for marine
refrigeration.

For comparison, a simple $300 foam insulated ice box of similar capacity
will require about 3,600 BTUs a day or 25 pounds of ice. The current price
of a 10 lb. bag of ice in the Bahamas and Virgin Islands is $2.50 and
considerably higher in Martinique, St. Martin and other Caribbean islands.
That works out to about $6.25 a day with no freezer and not including the
value of lost personal time constantly having to get more ice.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.rutuonline.com" target="_blank">http://www.rutuonline.com</a>
Shameless Commercial Division: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.spade-anchor-us.com" target="_blank">http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</a>

"JAXAshby" <jaxashby DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041124202436.21604.00000975@mb-m11.aol.com...
  > >Jax, you still don't have a clue.
  > >
 >
 > Really, Glenn? But I am not the one with $18,000 dollars stuck into a
reefer
 > system that requires me to run the engine for three hours a day.
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions 

like I said, Glenn, in the world of corporate finance you would be asked to go
to the loading dock to see if it is raining outside. You grasp of the
principles of cost accounting is too weak to even be considered minimal.

you want the reefer at whatever cost, and you will force fit the cost figures
into your planned budget no matter what the reality.

"20 frickin' minutes a day engine runtime" to maintain your reefer cool (not
cold, but cool)? You have to be kidding. Even those who are "out there" are
CLAIMING 30 minutes to an hour **twice** a day. And just a side note, Glenn,
the cruisers anchored around those "I gotta have ice cubes in my drinks" reefer
boats claim the assholes run their engines far more like a hour and a half in
the morning, then start their engines in the afternoon and go ashore (for a
couple of cold, not cool, ones) for 2-1/2 to 3 hours.

btw, I notice you _claim_ that your 90 amps per day for your planned reefer is
only 1/3 of your total energy budget. In other words, you are currently
budgeted for nearly ***three frickin' hundred amps*** PER DAY!! That is you
_budget_, which if you are like most people is about one half or less than what
you will really use per day.

Glenn, you want your reefer and will get it whatever the cost. Frankly, I feel
cold, not cool, iced drinks ashore is one hell of a lot cheaper.

 >From: "Glenn Ashmore" gashmore.RemoveThis@cox.net
 >Date: 11/24/2004 10:50 PM Eastern Standard Time
 >Message-id: <7Ecpd.3629$wa1.1178@lakeread04>
 >
 >That is so far off that I just have to reply. I am not doing this as a
 >rebuttal to your asinine comments but for the benefit of those lurkers who
 >might be interested in the thought process.
 >
 >The TOTAL cost of my refrigeration system is a little under $4K including
 >the vacuum insulation, separate keel cooled compressors for the freezer and
 >refrigerator, custom made double sealed lids with solid surface tops and the
 >materials for the cabinet work. Under the worst case load it will consume
 >about 90 amp hours. My alternator produces 270 amps and the battery bank is
 >a little over 800 amp hours so the average charge time required for
 >refrigeration will be about 20 minutes assuming no output from the solar
 >panels.
 >
 >If you want to consider ALL the cost of the batteries, alternators, 3 stage
 >regulator and solar panels as exclusively used for refrigeration add another
 >$3K. But that is not really fair because refrigeration is only 1/3 of my
 >energy budget. A fair figure for the total cost of my refrigeration system
 >is about $5K.
 >
 >If I were really considering this project on a cost accounting basis I would
 >not own a boat in the first place but money in excess of that required to
 >survive comfortably is useless unless you can have some fun with it. But
 >lets give a little cost accounting a try and see what happens. To estimate
 >the real cost of the system we need to make some assumptions. First we
 >amortize the capital costs. Let's assume over an economic life of 10 years
 >at the end of which an additional $3,000 will be required to refit the
 >mechanical parts and vacuum panels. Assuming an average use of 120 days a
 >year that works out to about $4.40/day including opportunity cost of the
 >capital at 6%.
 >
 >Now let's consider the operating costs. Two unshaded 150 watt solar panels
 >in the tropics should be expected to optimally produce about 160 amp hours
 >of charge. But things are never optimal so to be conservative we will
 >assume only 25% or 40 amp hours (that is average. Not every day.) so the
 >engine must provide the remaining 50 amp hours or about 12 minutes of run
 >time. From a separate calculation of engine expenses that includes capital
 >costs, overhauls, oil, general maintenance and fuel at $4/gallon over the
 >service live, that is about $1.20 ignoring the 5 gallons of water that will
 >be produced at the same time and the value of any forward progress the boat
 >makes.. For good measure, lets throw in another $360/year reserve for
 >repairs. So the total cost of the system can be conservatively estimated at
 >about $6.60/day. Obviously not as good as the $.60 to $1.00 a day that a
 >home refrigerator cost but about the middle of the cost range for marine
 >refrigeration.
 >
 >For comparison, a simple $300 foam insulated ice box of similar capacity
 >will require about 3,600 BTUs a day or 25 pounds of ice. The current price
 >of a 10 lb. bag of ice in the Bahamas and Virgin Islands is $2.50 and
 >considerably higher in Martinique, St. Martin and other Caribbean islands.
 >That works out to about $6.25 a day with no freezer and not including the
 >value of lost personal time constantly having to get more ice.
 >
 >--
 >Glenn Ashmore
 >
 >I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
<font color=purple> >there of) at: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.rutuonline.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.rutuonline.com</font</a>>
<font color=purple> >Shameless Commercial Division: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</font</a>>
 >
 >"JAXAshby" <jaxashby.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message
 >news:20041124202436.21604.00000975@mb-m11.aol.com...
   >> >Jax, you still don't have a clue.
   >> >
  >>
  >> Really, Glenn? But I am not the one with $18,000 dollars stuck into a
 >reefer
  >> system that requires me to run the engine for three hours a day.
  >>
  >>
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions 

Jax says:

 >like I said, Glenn, in the world of corporate finance you would be asked to
 >go
 >to the loading dock to see if it is raining outside.

Which may be why he isn't in it. God knows it would bore me to tears, and I
couldn't be less interested in it.

 >you are currently
 >budgeted for nearly ***three frickin' hundred amps*** PER DAY!!

I'd have thought with your penchant for being able to quote definitions for
units so readly that you would have realised that it's AMP-HOURS, not amps.



 > Frankly, I feel
 >cold, not cool, iced drinks ashore is one hell of a lot cheaper.

That probably would suit Glenn very well, as it keeps you (and yahoos like you)
out of the harbour more.

Steve<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: "Heatshield" - More reefer (well, insulation) questions