Hazards of Gasoline with Ethanol

"Gene Kearns" <gene.boating RemoveThis @myworkshop.idleplay.net> wrote in message
news:93cac2dsp2dgnphk5jk0muoprga97uhato@4ax.com...
>
> Be afraid... be very afraid. There are a lot of major issues relating
> to the use of alcohol laced fuels in the boating environment.
>
> Just say, "No!"

Both Mr. Swartwood and Mr. Edgar have heard of a lot more ethanol-related
boat engine problems than they have seen. "I've only seen a few more engine
problems this year than in other years," said Mr. Edgar, while Mr. Swartwood
says he hasn't had any problems with ethanol."

If they aren't seeing any problems, what is their problem? Ethanol based
fuels have been widely used since the mid-80's, somehow we all muddled
through.
The fibreglass tanks in question are in 20-year old boats.

BTW: How do you "just say no" to ethanol-based fuels when that is the only
fuel available?
 >> Stay informed about: Hazards of Gasoline with Ethanol 

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 >> Stay informed about: Hazards of Gasoline with Ethanol 

Forgive me, but I'm not sure I heard a clear answer to
whether or not outboards are more vulnerable to this
problem than inboards. As for me, with my Chevy V6,
isn't this why I have a water separator anyway? Or are
you saying that the water separator will be overwhelmed?
If it works as designed, I don't see any other way that
excess water can reach the carburetor.
I'm afraid we have another one of those issues that
is scientifically verifiable but where the consequences of
the issue are highly variable.
Frank








On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 01:23:38 GMT, Gene Kearns
<gene.boating DeleteThis @myworkshop.idleplay.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 21:05:04 -0400, John Wentworth penned the
>following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
>
>>
>>"Gene Kearns" <gene.boating DeleteThis @myworkshop.idleplay.net> wrote in message
>>news:93cac2dsp2dgnphk5jk0muoprga97uhato@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> Be afraid... be very afraid. There are a lot of major issues relating
>>> to the use of alcohol laced fuels in the boating environment.
>>>
>>> Just say, "No!"
>>
>>Both Mr. Swartwood and Mr. Edgar have heard of a lot more ethanol-related
>>boat engine problems than they have seen. "I've only seen a few more engine
>>problems this year than in other years," said Mr. Edgar, while Mr. Swartwood
>>says he hasn't had any problems with ethanol."
>>
>>If they aren't seeing any problems, what is their problem? Ethanol based
>>fuels have been widely used since the mid-80's, somehow we all muddled
>>through.
>>The fibreglass tanks in question are in 20-year old boats.
>>
>>BTW: How do you "just say no" to ethanol-based fuels when that is the only
>>fuel available?
>>
>
>On the other hand, how do you affordably operate a boat knowing that
>the fuel system will be pumping many times the water that it was
>designed to pump? My 3 year old outboards prohibit the use of
>ethanol... and they have three more years of warranty.
>
>Trust me, ethanol + humidity = corrosion. Maybe you trailer to your
>basement. I don't. I am surrounded by salty humidity.
>
>Check your marina to see how many 20+ year old boats there are....
>
>Mr. Edgar and Mr. Swartwood don't own your boat.... you do. I'm
>betting that the one in 100 problem that happens to you is going to be
>a real issue,
>
>I am truly amazed by the number of posts here that have so much more
>relevance to whose ox is gored rather than any common sense or
>morality... oh, well....
>
>so..... counsel me. I have engines that were made in 2003 that
>specifically disallow the use of *any* ethanol. How do I keep my
>warranty? More specifically, warranty notwithstanding, what do I do
>with the moisture entrained by the alcohol... that was not designed by
>*any* portion of my fuel system to handle?
>
>What say you?
 >> Stay informed about: Hazards of Gasoline with Ethanol 

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 >> Stay informed about: Hazards of Gasoline with Ethanol 

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 >> Stay informed about: Hazards of Gasoline with Ethanol 

Agreed, it is here and there on nothing most of us can do about it.

Ethanol attracts water. Up to a certain point it will hold the water
and it will simply get burnt. But at saturation the water will fall
out of suspension and end up in the bottom of your tank. If you dump
your water separator regularly you will catch it before it fills. If
you ignore it it will eventually fill with water and you will start to
get water in the rest of the fuel system and this will cause corrosion
problems.

John Wentworth wrote:
> "Gene Kearns" <gene.boating.TakeThisOut@myworkshop.idleplay.net> wrote in message
> news:gqrac21use4ba3ljiddrhgegnddeem69kv@4ax.com...
>
> I have a 2004 Mercury 4-stroke outboard, and up to 10% ethanol fuel is
> permitted. Mercury doesn't sound happy about the use of ethanol blended
> fuels, but it is permitted. In 2003 Yamaha and OMC said much the same
> thing: http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/pdf/2003marine.pdf
>
> Yamaha suggests the use of a fuel filter/ water separator for their
> outboards: Install a Yamaha mini-10T filter or 10-Micron filter. The
> 10-Micron filter is designed for use on boats with Yamaha outboards. The
> smaller mini-10 is designed for smaller boats with engines 115hp and under.
> Both Yamaha products filter out contaminants and separate water from fuel.
> The mini-10 features an aluminum head and is made from coated steel inside
> and painted steel outside to combat corrosion. The 10-Micron filter features
> either an aluminum or stainless steel head and is also made from coated
> interior and painted exterior steel.
>
> Do you live in an area where the fuel supply is a 10% ethanol blend? Have
> you asked your dealer for a recommendation? Has the dealer stated that your
> warranty is void if you use the only available fuel blend?
>
> I'm well aware of the issues with ethanol blended fuel, but it's late in the
> game to debate whether it's a good idea or not. In many parts of the
> country, ethanol blended fuel is a fact, and we have to deal with it.
>
> Have you considered becoming a sailboater?
 >> Stay informed about: Hazards of Gasoline with Ethanol 

There is another danger of mixing ethanol and gasoline:

Consuming ethanol while operating a gasoline-powered equipment is a
deadly combination


frank1492 wrote:
> I have a female friend who owns a boat and reported that her
> service department told her what I would consider to be an
> exaggerated tale about new gasoline /ethanol blends which can
> cause an engine not to start or die while in service. She has a
> outboard. I said I was not aware of any issues, and had seen nothing
> major reported in the press. I said I had an I/O with a Chevy V6 and
> would not be expecting any more difficulties than would be the
> case with my car. She then asked if it could be just an issue
> with outboards.
> I haven't asked my marina guy about this yet. I did a little Net
> research and couldn't find much except something about a possible
> reaction with fiberglass fuel tanks.
> Can someone clear the air on this issue? She seemed quite
> concerned. (I'm not.)
> Many thanks for your help!
> Frank
 >> Stay informed about: Hazards of Gasoline with Ethanol 

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 01:23:38 +0000, Gene Kearns wrote:


> so..... counsel me. I have engines that were made in 2003 that
> specifically disallow the use of *any* ethanol. How do I keep my warranty?
> More specifically, warranty notwithstanding, what do I do with the
> moisture entrained by the alcohol... that was not designed by *any*
> portion of my fuel system to handle?
>
> What say you?

Interesting question. Take it for what it's worth, but I found this: "The
bottom line is that the car manufacturer has to prove that any failure was
due to the fuel being used, whether petroleum or BioDiesel, if they want
to deny warranty coverage. The basic law in the U.S. is the Magnuson-Moss
Act from 1975. This is a broad warranty law. Most BioDiesel enthusiasts
interpret this law to mean that the burden of proof is on VW if they want
to deny warranty coverage."

http://www.itsgood4.us/biodiesel.htm

Assuming ethanol and biodiesel affect warranties the same, it may mean
that only damage directly related to ethanol would be outside the
warranty.

The Magnuson-Moss Act:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm#Magnuson-Moss
 >> Stay informed about: Hazards of Gasoline with Ethanol 

"Gene Kearns" <gene.boating.DeleteThis@myworkshop.idleplay.net> wrote in message
news:gqrac21use4ba3ljiddrhgegnddeem69kv@4ax.com...

I have a 2004 Mercury 4-stroke outboard, and up to 10% ethanol fuel is
permitted. Mercury doesn't sound happy about the use of ethanol blended
fuels, but it is permitted. In 2003 Yamaha and OMC said much the same
thing: http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/pdf/2003marine.pdf

Yamaha suggests the use of a fuel filter/ water separator for their
outboards: Install a Yamaha mini-10T filter or 10-Micron filter. The
10-Micron filter is designed for use on boats with Yamaha outboards. The
smaller mini-10 is designed for smaller boats with engines 115hp and under.
Both Yamaha products filter out contaminants and separate water from fuel.
The mini-10 features an aluminum head and is made from coated steel inside
and painted steel outside to combat corrosion. The 10-Micron filter features
either an aluminum or stainless steel head and is also made from coated
interior and painted exterior steel.

Do you live in an area where the fuel supply is a 10% ethanol blend? Have
you asked your dealer for a recommendation? Has the dealer stated that your
warranty is void if you use the only available fuel blend?

I'm well aware of the issues with ethanol blended fuel, but it's late in the
game to debate whether it's a good idea or not. In many parts of the
country, ethanol blended fuel is a fact, and we have to deal with it.

Have you considered becoming a sailboater?
 >> Stay informed about: Hazards of Gasoline with Ethanol 

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 20:23:24 -0000, Chuck Gould
<chuckgould.chuck RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for mentioning that fiberglass fuel tank issue again. It's been
> covered before but it can't be covered enough until everybody with a
> FRP fuel tank knows *not* to put ethanol blended gasoline into it.

Here's some more on it:

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/fueltest.asp


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 >> Stay informed about: Hazards of Gasoline with Ethanol 

Fiberglass also absorbs water and can loose strength due to that.
Regular gas also leaches out the unreacted resins, just much slower.
Even much slower is still not slow enough if you are going to give it
25 years to work on it. It is likely many of these tanks in question
are of dubious condition to start with. Fiberglass is not really the
best choice for a fuel tank.

Imho anyone with a fiberglass fuel tank 25 years old ought to be taking
a pretty critical look at it no matter what gas they are putting in it.

FWB wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 20:23:24 -0000, Chuck Gould
> <chuckgould.chuck.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for mentioning that fiberglass fuel tank issue again. It's been
> > covered before but it can't be covered enough until everybody with a
> > FRP fuel tank knows *not* to put ethanol blended gasoline into it.
>
> Here's some more on it:
>
> http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/fueltest.asp
>
>
> --
> Blogging from Pine View Farm--http://frankwbell.no-ip.info/weblog
> Updates daily. Worthwhile updates occasionally.
>
> fwb2355 is a spam trap. Email frankwbell at comcast.net
>
> Slackware (http://www.slackware.com) and Opera (http://www.opera.com):
> the ultimate internet experience.
 >> Stay informed about: Hazards of Gasoline with Ethanol