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Joao Penha-Lopes

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Since: Sep 04, 2003
Posts: 2



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:16 pm
Post subject: Electric Grounding - steel hull
Archived from groups: rec>boats (more info?)

Hello everybody,
I have just upgraded from a GRP 30ft sloop to a steel hull 40ft sloop.
Everything is in excellent state except for the electrical wiring which will
certainly consume most of my winter weekends....

My main worry before everything else is to plan for electrical grounding and
I have read the most opposite opinions.

Can somebody share his experience with me, please ?

Cheers
Joao

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Jim Woodward

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Since: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 63



(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:16 pm
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Interesting and difficult subject. I, too, will be interested in
thoughts from others.

When we bought Fintry (see <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.mvfintry.com" target="_blank">www.mvfintry.com</a> for background) she had
two electrical systems -- 24VDC and 220VDC. Their negative sides were
common and neither of them was grounded anywhere. There were ground
fault test lights on the main panel.

We will have both 24VDC and 120/240VAC (shore power, gensets,
inverters, the whole nine yards, set up for both 50 and 60Hz shore
power) and grounding is a real question.

Here's where I think I come out:

On the 24VDC side, I'll solidly ground the negative to the hull at one
point. To some extent "one point" is an illusion, because unless you
work very hard at it, there are all sorts of places where there's an
unexpected ground. Some of these are:
Engine starters (can be isolated, most aren't)
Engine instrument senders (same thing)
Alternators (isolated ground are more expensive)
Radios, particularly SSB -- you want the antenna tuner radio frequency
to be grounded to the hull for good performance, but this often brings
a power ground.

The reason I chose this is that it's better than trying to be
absolutely sure that none of the above is grounded and then, for
example, have a fault result in your engine starter trying to take its
ground side through your radio (this should, of course, blow a fuse).

Of course, it goes without saying that you always have two wires going
to everything -- never use the hull as a ground return as an
automobile does. It's also helpful, if possible, to be able to
disconnect the single point ground to make sure that it is, indeed, a
single point.

On the AC side, the most important thing is to use an isolation
transformer on the shore power entrance. These are expensive (US$900
new for 5KW) but absolutely essential, as they ensure that there is no
DC sneaking onto the boat on the AC wires from elsewhere in the
marina. (The neutral and hot shore power connect to one side; the
neutral and hot boat power come out the other -- no DC gets through.)
In US practice, you can use the same transformer to take in 120 or
240, depending on what's available, and always put out 120/240, three
wire plus ground -- this requires a switch on the shore side to change
the winding connections. It can also have multiple taps to adjust low
(or, much more rarely, high) voltages.

Another way to accomplish the same thing, particularly if you're going
back and forth between fifty and sixty hertz areas, is to hook the
shore power to a large universal battery charger and then run the boat
from an inverter. Large boats use devices which combine the two
functions into one and allow you to plug into any power (single or
three phase, any voltage, any frequency), but such things are very
expensive.

I will then connect the neutral and the green ground together on the
boat side of the transformer and connect them to the single point
ground. This is contrary to big ship practice, which usually lets
both side of the AC power float, but is consistent with yacht practice
in the USA. Big ship practice is to have two ground fault lamps, one
from each hot wire to ground. These have the effect of making sure
that the hull is electrically halfway between the two hots, as long as
the lamps aren't burned out. If a lamp goes out, there's either a
ground fault on that side or a burned out lamp.

In the US, the neutral is the center, electrically halfway between two
hot wires, which, when used together give 240VAC and when either is
used with the neutral, give 120VAC. European practice is to use one
side of the 230VAC as the neutral. When 115VAC is used in England,
and maybe in Europe, I don't know, it's taken from a transformer
running off the 230.

As part of the system, I will have a sensitive ammeter (both AC and
DC) in the ground wire to the hull to monitor whether there is current
flowing there -- shouldn't ever be any.

Then, I'll keep a close eye on all the zincs and say my prayers.....

Jim Woodward
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.mvfintry.com" target="_blank">www.mvfintry.com</a>



"Joao Penha-Lopes" <jpl DeleteThis @rgps.pt> wrote in message news:<3f577352$0$2244$a729d347@news.telepac.pt>...
 > Hello everybody,
 > I have just upgraded from a GRP 30ft sloop to a steel hull 40ft sloop.
 > Everything is in excellent state except for the electrical wiring which will
 > certainly consume most of my winter weekends....
 >
 > My main worry before everything else is to plan for electrical grounding and
 > I have read the most opposite opinions.
 >
 > Can somebody share his experience with me, please ?
 >
 > Cheers
 > Joao<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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CCred68046

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Since: Jan 01, 2004
Posts: 128



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Electric Grounding - steel hull [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I have seen this grounding questions with metal boats before and I dont
understand what the issue is. If the boat has a motor I can almost guarentee
its grounded somewhere to the hull weather its inboard or outboard. Would
someone actually go through the trouble and expense to isolate the electrical
system from the hull? That would take a lot to do!!
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CCred68046

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Since: Jan 01, 2004
Posts: 128



(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:18 am
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It's easy enough to check whats grounded to what, and whats not with a
continuity meter. I dont see how you could keep it from grounding with a metal
hull without spending a fortune. Something is going to touch somewhere at
least on the DC side.
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Jim Woodward

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Since: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 63



(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:27 am
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That was my conclusion for the future, but as I said, Fintry was built
in 1972 with no DC grounding and thirty years later had no ground
faults. Of course the Royal Navy maintenance schedules would put us
all to shame....

Jim Woodward
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.mvfintry.com" target="_blank">www.mvfintry.com</a>

ccred68046.DeleteThis@aol.comnobull (CCred68046) wrote in message news:<20030904191859.23411.00000465.DeleteThis@mb-m19.aol.com>...
 > It's easy enough to check whats grounded to what, and whats not with a
 > continuity meter. I dont see how you could keep it from grounding with a metal
 > hull without spending a fortune. Something is going to touch somewhere at
 > least on the DC side.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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ksmith11

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Since: Sep 05, 2003
Posts: 12



(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:38 pm
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CCred68046 wrote:
 > I have seen this grounding questions with metal boats before and I dont
 > understand what the issue is. If the boat has a motor I can almost guarentee
 > its grounded somewhere to the hull weather its inboard or outboard. Would
 > someone actually go through the trouble and expense to isolate the electrical
 > system from the hull? That would take a lot to do!!

  The debate is long & I'll stay out of it for now, however you are
mistaken Cred about "almost guaranteeing" engine electrics are grounded,
indeed most proper marine engine electrics are not.

  True marine electrics even on big diesels where the spark risk is
minimal, have all their electrics above ground. The starters &
alternators etc have their own earth returns kept above the cases, so if
the user/engine manufacturer chooses you can have a completely above
ground system with none of the electrics able to get to the prop shaft
etc via the block.

  Diodes leak.


K.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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CCred68046

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Since: Jan 01, 2004
Posts: 128



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:38 pm
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 >I'll stay out of it for now, however you are
 >mistaken Cred about "almost guaranteeing" engine electrics are grounded,
 >indeed most proper marine engine electrics are not.
 >

How can they not be? Every DC and AC motor I know of requires a + and -
current to run. I consider the - to be ground. The outdrive is connected to the
engine which must have a + and - (or ground) to run, and is fastened to the
metal hull. If theres no continuity there you will have to show me with a VOM.

  > True marine electrics even on big diesels where the spark risk is
 >minimal, have all their electrics above ground.

Define "above ground". Again, they require a positive and negitive to operate.


 >The starters &
 >alternators etc have their own earth >returns kept above the cases, so if
 >the user/engine manufacturer chooses you can have a completely above
 >ground system with none of the electrics able to get to the prop shaft
 >etc via the block.

And the block is grounded (or negitive) and is connected metal to metal to the
metal outdrive which is bolted to the metal hull. The connection might not be
the best but it is there and I have to believe its making a pretty decent
connection. I have an aluminum boat with an outboard and there is definately
continuity from the hull to the motor.. It would take some pretty serious
custom made isolators to stop it.
I can admit it when I'm wrong so if someone can show me that I am I would like
to know how they work.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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basskisser

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Since: Jul 15, 2003
Posts: 639



(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:38 pm
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K Smith <ksmith1.TakeThisOut@tpg.com.au> wrote in message news:<bj8sg6$gls97$1@ID-133999.news.uni-berlin.de>...
 > CCred68046 wrote:
  > > I have seen this grounding questions with metal boats before and I dont
  > > understand what the issue is. If the boat has a motor I can almost guarentee
  > > its grounded somewhere to the hull weather its inboard or outboard. Would
  > > someone actually go through the trouble and expense to isolate the electrical
  > > system from the hull? That would take a lot to do!!
 >
  > The debate is long & I'll stay out of it for now, however you are
 > mistaken Cred about "almost guaranteeing" engine electrics are grounded,
 > indeed most proper marine engine electrics are not.

How can an electrical circuit be made if there isn't any ground?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Mark Browne1

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Since: Sep 05, 2003
Posts: 13



(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:38 pm
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"CCred68046" <ccred68046.DeleteThis@aol.comnobull> wrote in message
news:20030905000648.17919.00000445@mb-m05.aol.com...
  > >I'll stay out of it for now, however you are
  > >mistaken Cred about "almost guaranteeing" engine electrics are grounded,
  > >indeed most proper marine engine electrics are not.
  > >
 >
 > How can they not be? Every DC and AC motor I know of requires a + and -
 > current to run. I consider the - to be ground. The outdrive is connected
to the
 > engine which must have a + and - (or ground) to run, and is fastened to
the
 > metal hull. If theres no continuity there you will have to show me with a
VOM.
 >
  > > True marine electrics even on big diesels where the spark risk is
  > >minimal, have all their electrics above ground.
 >
 > Define "above ground". Again, they require a positive and negitive to
operate.
 >
 >
  > >The starters &
  > >alternators etc have their own earth >returns kept above the cases, so if
  > >the user/engine manufacturer chooses you can have a completely above
  > >ground system with none of the electrics able to get to the prop shaft
  > >etc via the block.
 >
 > And the block is grounded (or negitive) and is connected metal to metal to
the
 > metal outdrive which is bolted to the metal hull. The connection might
not be
 > the best but it is there and I have to believe its making a pretty decent
 > connection. I have an aluminum boat with an outboard and there is
definately
 > continuity from the hull to the motor.. It would take some pretty serious
 > custom made isolators to stop it.
 > I can admit it when I'm wrong so if someone can show me that I am I would
like
 > to know how they work.
 >
 >
There is no requirement for the coil(s) to be grounded to the case. While I
have no experience with a floating ground in a 12 or 24 volt ignitions, all
high voltage motors and generators that I have ever worked with are isolated
from the frame. There is no practical reason that a low voltage system
can't be wired the same way.

The only area where it may be difficult to separate the ground from the
frame is the spark plugs. Even this is not an insurmountable problem; it is
possible to make a spark plug with two electrodes. The only place I have
seen this used in practice is turbine APUs.

Mark Browne<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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CCred68046

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Since: Jan 01, 2004
Posts: 128



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:38 pm
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 >The only area where it may be difficult to separate the ground from the
 >frame is the spark plugs. Even this is not an insurmountable problem; it is
 >possible to make a spark plug with two electrodes.

I can agree with your post, I understand the high voltage motors and
generators. The spark plug scenerio would require 2 wires to each plug and the
plugs would have to be insulated from the block and I can say I've ever seen
that... Is that the way they are? Now I'm real interested Smile<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Mark Browne1

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Since: Sep 05, 2003
Posts: 13



(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:51 pm
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"CCred68046" <ccred68046 DeleteThis @aol.comnobull> wrote in message
news:20030905092534.17961.00000695@mb-m01.aol.com...
  > >The only area where it may be difficult to separate the ground from the
  > >frame is the spark plugs. Even this is not an insurmountable problem; it
is
  > >possible to make a spark plug with two electrodes.
 >
 > I can agree with your post, I understand the high voltage motors and
 > generators. The spark plug scenerio would require 2 wires to each plug
and the
 > plugs would have to be insulated from the block and I can say I've ever
seen
 > that... Is that the way they are? Now I'm real interested Smile

Yes, there are two wires running to the plugs on some turbines.

I spend considerable time lurking in aircraft hangars. You see all sorts of
odd things done on aircraft systems.

The starting spark on a turbine engine has considerably higher power than a
standard gas engine - It has enough oomph that you can hear the snap of the
spark over the whine of the compressor when it starts up. It has to have
"lot 'o zots" to fire kerosene at the high air velocities in a turbine
engine.

Mark Browne<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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CCred68046

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Since: Jan 01, 2004
Posts: 128



(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:00 pm
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 >Yes, there are two wires running to the plugs on some turbines.
 >
 >I spend considerable time lurking in aircraft hangars. You see all sorts of
 >odd things done on aircraft systems.
 >
 >The starting spark on a turbine engine has considerably higher power than a
 >standard gas engine - It has enough oomph that you can hear the snap of the
 >spark over the whine of the compressor when it starts up. It has to have
 >"lot 'o zots" to fire kerosene at the high air velocities in a turbine
 >engine.
 >
 >Mark Browne

Thanks for sharing that, I didnt realize turbines were that way. They must have
a huge magneto if you can hear em snap Smile
I have a good friend who is an aircraft mechanic USAF and he told me that on
piston engine aircraft many will have 2 wires per plug but the reason is for
redundancy (in case one fails), they are both hot.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Mark Browne1

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Since: Sep 05, 2003
Posts: 13



(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:23 am
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"CCred68046" <ccred68046 RemoveThis @aol.comnobull> wrote in message
news:20030905130050.08204.00000517@mb-m14.aol.com...
  > >Yes, there are two wires running to the plugs on some turbines.
  > >
  > >I spend considerable time lurking in aircraft hangars. You see all sorts
of
  > >odd things done on aircraft systems.
  > >
  > >The starting spark on a turbine engine has considerably higher power than
a
  > >standard gas engine - It has enough oomph that you can hear the snap of
the
  > >spark over the whine of the compressor when it starts up. It has to have
  > >"lot 'o zots" to fire kerosene at the high air velocities in a turbine
  > >engine.
  > >
  > >Mark Browne
 >
 > Thanks for sharing that, I didnt realize turbines were that way. They must
have
 > a huge magneto if you can hear em snap Smile
 > I have a good friend who is an aircraft mechanic USAF and he told me that
on
 > piston engine aircraft many will have 2 wires per plug but the reason is
for
 > redundancy (in case one fails), they are both hot.

You are correct on the light aircraft ignition.

I am interested in the DIY turbine engine hobby so I ask a lot of questions
when I lurk in aircraft technical offices. Some of the old timers have some
interesting things laying around for show and tell.

One of the more curious approaches to generating the high energy required by
turbine engines was the "opposite-polarity system." In this circuit two
electrodes extended into the combustion chamber. Each electrode becomes
alternately charged with positive and negative potential. This allows double
the voltage across the electrode without the corresponding need for higher
voltage insulation in the power leads.

Modern capacitor discharge igniters have made these exotic systems
unnecessary; most modern turbines use an annular ring, single gap igniter.
Some of the exciters on these thing pumps out in excess of 20 Jules
discharges! I have not seen one that uses a magneto, the power source is
either 24v DC or 115/400hz AC so they have a lot of power to play with. The
firing rate is pretty slow, it sounds like about four zaps a second, so they
can build up this monster spark. These ignitions have big bold warning
about the lethal nature of the spark, and after seeing the spark these
things throw, I believe it! As far as redundancy goes, the engines I have
seen use completely separate dual exciters, power leads, and igniters.

Mark Browne<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Mark Browne1

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Since: Sep 05, 2003
Posts: 13



(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:32 am
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"basskisser" <atl_man2 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3c74f111.0309050823.a6b5fc5@posting.google.com...
 > K Smith <ksmith1 RemoveThis @tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:<bj8sg6$gls97$1@ID-133999.news.uni-berlin.de>...
  > > CCred68046 wrote:
   > > > I have seen this grounding questions with metal boats before and I
dont
   > > > understand what the issue is. If the boat has a motor I can almost
guarentee
   > > > its grounded somewhere to the hull weather its inboard or outboard.
Would
   > > > someone actually go through the trouble and expense to isolate the
electrical
   > > > system from the hull? That would take a lot to do!!
  > >
  > > The debate is long & I'll stay out of it for now, however you are
  > > mistaken Cred about "almost guaranteeing" engine electrics are grounded,
  > > indeed most proper marine engine electrics are not.
 >
 > How can an electrical circuit be made if there isn't any ground?

It has one - It just does not use the engine or drive components to provide
the current return path; a separate "ground" wire carries the juice back.
Look up "ground loops" on google. This type of wiring allows effective
assaults on this nasty problem. If you are trying to eliminate radio
interference problems or reduce electrically induced corrosion problems,
this can make a lot of sense.

There have been a few times that I wished that automotive components were
built this way.

Mark Browne<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Jim Woodward

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Since: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 63



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 9:01 am
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Mark:

I don't like to be nit picking about teminology, but a lot of
electrical confusion can be avoided if we're consistent.

You don't need any ground in an electrical circuit. A plastic
flashlight is a simple example of something that doesn't have a
ground. The doorbell in your house is ungrounded even if supplied by
a transformer, the transformer isolates the doorbell wiring from the
ground. And so forth.

A "ground", or in British usage, an "earth", is just that, literally a
connection to the earth, which is a pretty good conductor because
there's lots of it.

So, strictly speaking, there isn't a ground unless there's a
connection to terra firma or the sea.

However, in many pieces of equipment -- autos and radios come to mind
as good examples -- one side of the power supply is attached to the
chassis. In auto and radio practice the chassis is used as the return
for all the current on that side (usually negative now, but positive
ground used to be common). Strictly speaking this is a "chassis
ground", not a "ground", but nobody's that strict.

On boats, there is usually a single point connection from ground to
the negative side of the DC supply and -- only when the supply is on
board, NOT with shore power -- the neutral side of the AC supply
(white wire in US practice). All current is through two wires, never
through the hull, mast, or anything else.

In the case of boats, many large vessels have ungrounded ("floating"
is the term of art) electrical systems. The engine starters, gauge
sensors, and alternators all have two wires going to them, both of
which are insulated from their metal bodies. Everything else is also
insulated and there are alarms to indicate ground faults -- a fault
connection from one side of a power supply to the hull. This is true
of both their DC systems and their AC, house supply, systems.

We're so used to engine starters being grounded on one side that we
forget that almost all electric motors except starters are insulated
from their metal cases -- insulated motors are the rule and automotive
starters are very much the exception.

(Now a little technical stuff) The reason that large vessels having
floating electrical systems is that it is easy to detect ground faults
when the system is floating. Ground faults are bad because, aside
from obvious safety issues, current will be conducted through the hull
leading to possible electro-chemical erosion. With a grounded system,
ground faults on the hot side are easy to detect -- a circuit breaker
blows. Ground faults on the other, neutral, side are very subtle and
hard to detect. You can detect them by careful measurements, but in a
marine environment careful measurements are almost impossible because
there's always a little leakage caused by moist salt air. So they just
sit there, conducting current, and damging the hull.

Jim Woodward
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.mvfintry.com" target="_blank">www.mvfintry.com</a>

"Mark Browne" <markdeb.browne.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<LOa6b.176615$2x.49997@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>...
 > "basskisser" <atl_man2.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
 > news:3c74f111.0309050823.a6b5fc5@posting.google.com...
  > > K Smith <ksmith1.RemoveThis@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
 > news:<bj8sg6$gls97$1@ID-133999.news.uni-berlin.de>...
   > > > CCred68046 wrote:
   > > > > I have seen this grounding questions with metal boats before and I
 > dont
   > > > > understand what the issue is. If the boat has a motor I can almost
 > guarentee
   > > > > its grounded somewhere to the hull weather its inboard or outboard.
 > Would
   > > > > someone actually go through the trouble and expense to isolate the
 > electrical
   > > > > system from the hull? That would take a lot to do!!
   > > >
   > > > The debate is long & I'll stay out of it for now, however you are
   > > > mistaken Cred about "almost guaranteeing" engine electrics are grounded,
   > > > indeed most proper marine engine electrics are not.
  > >
  > > How can an electrical circuit be made if there isn't any ground?
 >
 > It has one - It just does not use the engine or drive components to provide
 > the current return path; a separate "ground" wire carries the juice back.
 > Look up "ground loops" on google. This type of wiring allows effective
 > assaults on this nasty problem. If you are trying to eliminate radio
 > interference problems or reduce electrically induced corrosion problems,
 > this can make a lot of sense.
 >
 > There have been a few times that I wished that automotive components were
 > built this way.
 >
 > Mark Browne<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Coal tar for bottom of steel hull? - Hi, I'm considering buying a houseboat with a steel bottom. New steel was put on 4 years ago, and treated with coal tar epoxy, supposedly. I was told that the coal tar treatment will last for a long time. Can anyone tell me if the coal tar treatment is....

a question about steel battleship hull designs of the late.. - I've always wondered why the "modern" ironclads of the late 1800's had an odd bow design. After probably thousands of years of ship building from around the world, it seems that the bow always well overlapped the keel, that is... untill the lat...

Grounding Gas Tank - Curious - So yesterday we went up to see a boat restorer in upstate NY. VERY nice guy. Anyway, while talking he reminded me that I need to run a ground wire from my steel gas tank to the engine or other ground point. ~ I'm sure this is a good idea that can't..

Electric snowblowers - Anyone ever try an electric snowlower? Not the Mickey Mouse little 'brooms', but the bigger 12 amp model that resembles a small 5 hp. I see Toro makes a model 1800. My city lot only has 40' of sidewalk. but I have a 10' wide driveway and about 30' of..

Boat Electric - My boat has sat idle for many years. it is 30 years old. Each day it is used it works better and better. my question is for the dash gauges. when my ignition key is moved to the accessory position all my gauges show true readings. as soon as the boat i...
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