Drag devices

I don't know anything about drogues, so I'll say something I do know
about. Before you add complex gear...
1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new
tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe
location that doesn't require Coasties.
2. Pay better attention to conditions
3. Don't go out as a single boat.

Glad to hear you're OK. Must have been a scary time.

Steve

!Jones wrote:
> As new tandem kayak team, we recently got caught in water that was
> beyond our capability. The wind and waves quickly turned our boat and
> rolled us. I was able to right the boat and climb back in; however,
> I'd be dumped trying to bring it around into the wind... uktimately,
> the Coast Guard had to pull us out.
>
> First, of course, stay out of that position; however, given that
> you're there, does anyone carry a drag device, aka: a sea anchor or
> drogue. If so, what type and size to you use? How do you rig it? At
> which end of the boat do you keep it standby? It's like a life jacket
> in that, when you need it, you won't have time to dig it out and
> attach it.
>
> As I understand, a "sea anchor" is a different idea from a "drogue" in
> that a sea anchor is supposed to hold you essentially stationary with
> bow into the wind and a drogue is a smaller device that's towed and
> keeps the stern into the wind while affording some steering of the
> boat.
>
> Am I on the right sheet of music? I see that *Para Sail* makes a 36"
> drouge... I'd assume that ought to be big enough for a kayak????
>
> Jones


--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA
 >> Stay informed about: Drag devices 

!Jones wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:11:25 -0400, in rec.boats.paddle Steve Cramer
> wrote:
>
> >1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new
> >tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe
> >location that doesn't require Coasties.
> >2. Pay better attention to conditions
> >3. Don't go out as a single boat.
>
> Thank you for the lecture.
<snip>
>
> Now, an unsolicited lecture: If you don't wish to fight incessant
> flame wars, then refrain from giving out unsolicited lectures. While
> what you say is perfectly valid and nobody in their right mind would
> argue otherwise, it comes across as pedantic and patronizing.

It would have helped to have included this tidbit in your original post
if you didn't want a lecture.

"It was a Coast Guard sponsored training session held with a lifeboat
standing by".

Anyone else have a vison of the Coast Guard being called for a rescue
when they read the original post? I know I did.
 >> Stay informed about: Drag devices 

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:11:25 -0400, in rec.boats.paddle Steve Cramer
wrote:

>1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new
>tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe
>location that doesn't require Coasties.
>2. Pay better attention to conditions
>3. Don't go out as a single boat.

Thank you for the lecture.

1. It was a Coast Guard sopnsored training session held with a
lifeboat standing by.

2. The conditions were pretty generic to the area in which we live: 20
knot wind, 4' chop on a 9 second period. No fun, these, but, if you
plan to paddle hereabouts, you'd better be able to deal with that.

3. When you end up in the laundry, another kayak isn't much help, IMO.
I had other boats all around me.

But, seriously, when you're flipped by a wave, are you *really*
thinking about getting some training?

Can one really learn how to handle a kayak in adverse conditions by
reading some books on the subject? ... by getting advice from
experts? We chose that spot and those conditions because we thought
they'd be challenging; however, they would not life threatening.
(Although, about my third time through the rinse cycle, I wasn't so
sure about that.)

We were not able to right the boat and remount. Our spotters gave us
time, then came in and fished us out.

On reflection, I think that a drag device might have helped... *that*
was the meat of the question. *I* couldn't orient the nose-high
tandem boat and get back to my stoker. ( And I believe I said that one
should avoid that situation.)

Now, an unsolicited lecture: If you don't wish to fight incessant
flame wars, then refrain from giving out unsolicited lectures. While
what you say is perfectly valid and nobody in their right mind would
argue otherwise, it comes across as pedantic and patronizing.

I *love* to fight flame wars, personally; however, I'm not seeking one
at the moment... I'm *still* sore from my Monday evening pasting in
the chop. I would suggest that no training session in the world
matches a good laundering for impressing one just how powerful the
waves are!!!

Jones
 >> Stay informed about: Drag devices 

On 21 Jun 2006 07:41:02 -0700, in rec.boats.paddle "Oci-One Kanubi"
wrote:

>Forgive me for not answering your actual question, but (perhaps you
>might experiment with this suggestion in a strong wind under
>otherwise-controlled conditions):

Actually, it's "bang on" my topic. I get the impression that the drag
device isn't in common usage.

The other issue that presented itself in the middle of it all was that
my stoker lacked the upper body strength to pull herself into the
boat. She's in good physical shape; however, handicaps make it
doubtful that she ever *will* do the push-up. For this reason, we
shall stay in calm water; however, we will need to develop a wet entry
technique and practice it. I'm thinking of some kind of a stirrup
where she could get her leg involved.

Jones
 >> Stay informed about: Drag devices 

!Jones wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:11:25 -0400, in rec.boats.paddle Steve Cramer
> wrote:
>
>> 1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new
>> tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe
>> location that doesn't require Coasties.
>> 2. Pay better attention to conditions
>> 3. Don't go out as a single boat.
>
> Thank you for the lecture.

Don't mention it. Comes with your Usenet subscription. No extra charge.
>
> 1. It was a Coast Guard sopnsored training session held with a
> lifeboat standing by.

You might have mentioned that. Were you the designated crash test dummy?
>
> 2. The conditions were pretty generic to the area in which we live: 20
> knot wind, 4' chop on a 9 second period. No fun, these, but, if you
> plan to paddle hereabouts, you'd better be able to deal with that.

Indeed. Are you able to? If not, find some more sheltered areas until
you are.
>
> 3. When you end up in the laundry, another kayak isn't much help, IMO.
> I had other boats all around me.

Then why did the Coast Guard have to be involved. Oh, right, they were
training and needed the practice. Will you always paddle in CG practice
zones? If not, ....
>
> But, seriously, when you're flipped by a wave, are you *really*
> thinking about getting some training?

Of course not, that's why you should be thinking of it NOW. Might have
been nice to think about it beforehand, but that's water under the, um,
kayak.
>
> Can one really learn how to handle a kayak in adverse conditions by
> reading some books on the subject?

No.
.... by getting advice from
> experts?

No.

> We chose that spot and those conditions because we thought
> they'd be challenging; however, they would not life threatening.
> (Although, about my third time through the rinse cycle, I wasn't so
> sure about that.)

Just asking, had you ever tried to do an unassisted tandem re-entry in
4' waves? In flat water?
>
> We were not able to right the boat and remount. Our spotters gave us
> time, then came in and fished us out.
>
> On reflection, I think that a drag device might have helped... *that*
> was the meat of the question. *I* couldn't orient the nose-high
> tandem boat and get back to my stoker. ( And I believe I said that one
> should avoid that situation.)

Oci-1 has given an excellent set of advice on how to deal with your
problem. Of course, he was sitting at a keyboard and had time to think
about it. If you had had some previous rescue training, it might have
been an automatic response on your part.

> Now, an unsolicited lecture: If you don't wish to fight incessant
> flame wars, then refrain from giving out unsolicited lectures. While
> what you say is perfectly valid and nobody in their right mind would
> argue otherwise, it comes across as pedantic and patronizing.

I'm sorry if you found my suggestions pedantic ( I am, after all, a
college professor) and patronizing. Here's the point I was trying to
make, and if you spend any time here you'll see it made repeatedly: more
gear does not keep/get you out of trouble. Training leading to a
stronger skills base does.
>
> I *love* to fight flame wars, personally; however, I'm not seeking one
> at the moment... I'm *still* sore from my Monday evening pasting in
> the chop. I would suggest that no training session in the world
> matches a good laundering for impressing one just how powerful the
> waves are!!!

If you *love* flame wars, please find another ng. Telling people what
you think about the behavior they voluntarily placed in front of the
world is not flaming, it's what newsgroups do. It's nice to be
impressed. But you don't learn much under those conditions.

Paddle safe.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA
 >> Stay informed about: Drag devices 

!Jones wrote:
> The other issue that presented itself in the middle of it all was that
> my stoker lacked the upper body strength to pull herself into the
> boat. She's in good physical shape; however, handicaps make it
> doubtful that she ever *will* do the push-up. For this reason, we
> shall stay in calm water; however, we will need to develop a wet entry
> technique and practice it. I'm thinking of some kind of a stirrup
> where she could get her leg involved.

Read Shumann & Shriner's book Sea Kayak Rescue. They discuss several
type of re-entry techniques, some involving slings.

Also, I'll speculate that your partner's problem *may* have had to do
with trying to pull herself up onto the boat (think getting out of a
swimming pool) rather than keeping her body flat on the surface and
swimming across the deck.

You could also try putting her in first with the boat on its side and
doing a paddlefloat roll with you pulling down on the other side. Lots
of options. Try 'em and see what works for you.

Steve

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA
 >> Stay informed about: Drag devices 

On 21-Jun-2006, !Jones wrote:

> then refrain from giving out unsolicited lectures.

Longtime readers of this newsgroup know that there are frequent
questions from beginners of the sort "This happened, what should I do
next" and the correct answer is not "Do this next" but "Don't let that
happen". In other words, it's a _lot_ easier to avoid a problem than
to fix it.

Since avoiding problems and reducing risk are preferred to solving
a problem, we tend to address that - especially for a beginner. Your
question sounded one from a beginner, Steve's response was appropriate
for _this_ newsgroup.

As to using a drogue or sea anchor - the problem with waves is that the
tendancy to broach is strong and a sea anchor only works if there is
significant velocity. Given that the drogue may not work effectively and
you have to deal with lines in the water while swimming, I'd say avoid it.

Your body will work as a drogue without risk due to entanglement in lines.
If, as someone suggested, you hang onto the bow and float vertically in
the water, then that should straighten the kayak if a drogue would. However,
as a recent incident showed. you might not be able to hold onto the kayak
if the waves are strong enough.

Since you can't do this and tend to your paddling partner at the same time,
it is essential that you either find a partner that can self rescue or avoid
these conditions.

Two things:
1 - doubles are not as safe as myth says.
2 - gear is not the solution to a kayaking problem.

Mike
 >> Stay informed about: Drag devices 

!Jones wrote in


We have a Para-Tech sea anchor that was custom made for our Klepper
double. I contacted Para-Tech some years back, explained what we were
looking for, gave the specs on the Klepper, where we kayak and so forth.
We kayak off all of the Hawaiian islands, Long Island Sound north to
Maine. The Para-Tech sea anchor sits in a small yellow bag to side of
person in front seat of kayak. The bag is about the size of a small
Gatorade bottle. A rope leads from the bag to the bow. To deploy you
simply pull the first few feet of rope out of the bag and drop the bag in
the water. The rest of the rope in the bag comes out as the wind blows
you backwards or sideways. Once the rope goes taunt from the bow to the
bag now in the water, the boat stops moving and the bow is face on to the
wind.

Hawe we used it? Yes. One time in 5 years. Off the Big Island in
Hawaii. Very unusual off-shore wind rapidly went from light breeze to
about 30 knots. As we discovered when we finally made it to the landing,
even the local fishermen on the water were stunned at the rapid and
totally unusual conditions that morning. Two of them had their own boats
capsized and wound up being rescued by the Coast Guard.

Having practiced deploying the sea anchor on a large lake in Connecticut
during windy conditions, deploying it in what we still consider a very
dangerous situation went smoothly. Bow came around, we hunkered down,
and about an hour later when the wind find let up, based on GPS (Garmin
GPSMap 76cs) reading we had been blow seaward about three hundred feet.
Without the sea anchor there would have been no way to prevent us from
being blown seaward a mile or realistically many miles.

Aside from the wind blowing in our faces, the feeling and reality of
being securely anchored to the surface of the sea made cost of the sea
anchor inconsequential. I have read the other posts here regarding
training, etc. You can train all you want but there is no training that
will cover every possible situation that can happen on the sea. Your
seeking further safety information should be responded to rather than
getting responses that have nothing to do with the question. Here's some
quotes which I have collected.

"Evey vessel venturing offshore is a lonely entity, face to face with the
most elemental force on the planet earth." Carleton Mitchell

"The fallacy lies in expecting anything at sea to be as it 'should be'."
Webb Chiles

"The time to tkae measures for a ship's safety is while still able to do
so. Nothing is more dangerous than for a seaman to be grudging in taking
precautions, lest they turn out to have been unnecesary. Safety at sea,
for a thousand years, has depended on exactly the opposite philosophy."
Chester W. Nimitz, Admiral US Navy

--
Big Island Bob
 >> Stay informed about: Drag devices