Diesel repowering recommandation ?

Hi Charles,

I did a few research recently and even compared many power/consumption
curves of new engines and here are my findings:

-High speed, modern diesels (4000 rpm) are light but their consumption is
higher than low speed one (3000 rpm)
-They costs significantly less in USA than in Canada
-Cummins has a direct selling market (every dealer goes up to the
distributor for a quote and all quotes are the same)
-Each HP range has a "marketing price" which doesn't reflect the real
production cost
-The sterndrive in itself is very expensive

So i have several quotes in hands for Diesel + sterndrive :

Cummins MS4.2-200 for 25 000 $ excluding taxes (this is my preferate on the
technical side, the most efficient one)
Cummins 2.8-200 for 27 000 $ excluding taxes (same HP but 15 % less
efficient but less weight)
Volvo Penta D3-160 for 21 000 $
Volvo Penta D4-200 for 25 000 $
Yanmars 210 HP.... too costly over 30 000 $

My current boating usage are 200 hours of navigation per year at a median
speed of 1700 rpm (100 HP). At this speed my current engine guzzles 20
liters/hour and a Cummins 4.2 for example would ask only 5.7 liters per hour
for the same power. So instead of paying 4000 $ of gas per summer i would
pay 1200 $ of fuel. This is 3 800 $ per year less and would cover the
financing cost of the engine forever.

The pros and cons for a Diesel remotoring from my perspective are:

Pros:
Prepare for the future where gas price will be high
Preserve the value of the boat when the market become depressed in a 2.00
/Liter world
Preseve the fun of boating because today i have no fun when i fill up the
tank for 300 $
Get a better engine package than the one i have today
Possibility of using alternative fuel like Biodiesel
More efficiency (more power per liter)
Efficiency of the sterndrive compared to my current v-drive dinosaur
Longer range

Cons:
Price to be amortized over 5-8 years


This is where i stand today. If you want to see the photos of my broken
propeller and rudder, then go to:

www.langevin.biz/marinette34/accident.htm

Cheers


(And remember the fuel crisis... who wanted a Chrylser Le Baron with 400 cu
inches ? Who will want a Sea Ray with twin 7 liters MPI at 330 HP each when
the liter be 2.00 $ ?)



"Charles T. Low" <ctlow4 DeleteThis @boatUNdocking.com[withoutUN]> wrote in message
news:ec2ce$42fa8cb5$40ebc913$24724@ripnet.allthenewsgroups.com...
> André,
>
> Remind us of your boat. Some experts think that diesel engines are too
> heavy for "small" planing hull boats (up into the mid-30's of feet in
> length?). Also, they are very expensive compared with gas engines, and you
> won't see your savings repaid in fuel costs for many, many years,
> depending on usage. There are newer, lighter, high-output, light-weight
> diesels, but there is some concern that they might not have the longevity
> of older, heavier, slower-turning diesels. I don't know if this has been
> resolved yet.
>
> Also, the sometime maverick, David Pascoe (www.pascoe.com), has an article
> posted explaining why he things gas is safer! (All of the fires around
> here have been gasoline-powered boats ... but there are many more of them
> to start with ... it gets complicated.)
>
> A friend with about 30-footer, twin gas engines, semi-planing, said that
> when he bought the boat new about 15 years ago, the upgrade cost to
> diesels was $50K - not the cost, just the _upgrade_ cost. Plus the exhaust
> is dirtier, or smells so, etc.
>
> If I had a larger boat, or a displacement hull, and/or was going to pile
> on lots of hours with heavy daily use, then I think that diesel is a
> no-brainer.
>
> So, what pros and cons have you considered when thinking about this
> project?
>
> ====
>
> Charles T. Low
> www.boatdocking.com
>
> ====
>
> "André Langevin" <andre.langevin DeleteThis @mediom.qc.ca> wrote in message
> news:JfMJe.4336$6d4.473302@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> This saturday while doing a SAR operation in Quebec, we've hit a
>> submerged object not on the map (possibly a block of concrete laid by
>> someone). Transmission is dead, propeller in 2 parts, propeller shaft
>> and strut need reconstruction. Needless to say, we went to help someone
>> but turned out to be the one to be saved too. This is very
>> embarassing...
>>
>> Since the repairing may be in the 3000-5000 $ range, i'm really thinking
>> this time to switch to a packaged Diesel/Sterndrive combination. There
>> are currently many Diesel engines manufacturers offering to integrate
>> either Alpha or Bravo sterndrive and converting from shaft/prop with a
>> V-drive to sterndrive seems a good thing to do.
>>
>> I would like to know if anyone has experience in this kind of project and
>> would have some reputable vendors or reseller to recommand ?
>>
>> Thanks
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Diesel repowering recommandation ? 

Salut André!

Looking at your well thought reasearch and according to your
motivations, I'd bet you'll end up with something sounding like
Cummins in your boat!

25K$ by modern standards is the price of small well equiped car, so
"amortissement" should be in the order of 5 years like for the car.
You'll have fun with it for 20 years or more, even "if they don't
build them like they used to". Wouldn't say that for the car! Volvo
parts are also VERY expensives, they compare to OL' Perk prices. Built
in the States, Cummins are "duty free" engines and parts. Consider
buying South if you can. Something we didn't considered when we
compared both engines types at the IMQ was the electronic injection,
now common on every new diesels. This does wonders in fuel economy
terms. And yes, they are built already to accept new alternative
fuels: the oil I now call "solar power in a bottle".

DO ponder the weight issue well before buying.

Jean, in Montreal

Un beau bonjour au monde de Quebec! On s'en vient vous voir au YCQ betôt!

"André Langevin" wrote:
>
> Hi Charles,
>
> I did a few research recently and even compared many power/consumption
> curves of new engines and here are my findings:
>
> -High speed, modern diesels (4000 rpm) are light but their consumption is
> higher than low speed one (3000 rpm)
> -They costs significantly less in USA than in Canada
> -Cummins has a direct selling market (every dealer goes up to the
> distributor for a quote and all quotes are the same)
> -Each HP range has a "marketing price" which doesn't reflect the real
> production cost
> -The sterndrive in itself is very expensive
>
> So i have several quotes in hands for Diesel + sterndrive :
>
> Cummins MS4.2-200 for 25 000 $ excluding taxes (this is my preferate on the
> technical side, the most efficient one)
> Cummins 2.8-200 for 27 000 $ excluding taxes (same HP but 15 % less
> efficient but less weight)
> Volvo Penta D3-160 for 21 000 $
> Volvo Penta D4-200 for 25 000 $
> Yanmars 210 HP.... too costly over 30 000 $
>
> My current boating usage are 200 hours of navigation per year at a median
> speed of 1700 rpm (100 HP). At this speed my current engine guzzles 20
> liters/hour and a Cummins 4.2 for example would ask only 5.7 liters per hour
> for the same power. So instead of paying 4000 $ of gas per summer i would
> pay 1200 $ of fuel. This is 3 800 $ per year less and would cover the
> financing cost of the engine forever.
>
> The pros and cons for a Diesel remotoring from my perspective are:
>
> Pros:
> Prepare for the future where gas price will be high
> Preserve the value of the boat when the market become depressed in a 2.00
> /Liter world
> Preseve the fun of boating because today i have no fun when i fill up the
> tank for 300 $
> Get a better engine package than the one i have today
> Possibility of using alternative fuel like Biodiesel
> More efficiency (more power per liter)
> Efficiency of the sterndrive compared to my current v-drive dinosaur
> Longer range
>
> Cons:
> Price to be amortized over 5-8 years
>
> This is where i stand today. If you want to see the photos of my broken
> propeller and rudder, then go to:
>
> www.langevin.biz/marinette34/accident.htm
>
> Cheers
>
> (And remember the fuel crisis... who wanted a Chrylser Le Baron with 400 cu
> inches ? Who will want a Sea Ray with twin 7 liters MPI at 330 HP each when
> the liter be 2.00 $ ?)
>
> "Charles T. Low" <ctlow4.DeleteThis@boatUNdocking.com[withoutUN]> wrote in message
> news:ec2ce$42fa8cb5$40ebc913$24724@ripnet.allthenewsgroups.com...
> > André,
> >
> > Remind us of your boat. Some experts think that diesel engines are too
> > heavy for "small" planing hull boats (up into the mid-30's of feet in
> > length?). Also, they are very expensive compared with gas engines, and you
> > won't see your savings repaid in fuel costs for many, many years,
> > depending on usage. There are newer, lighter, high-output, light-weight
> > diesels, but there is some concern that they might not have the longevity
> > of older, heavier, slower-turning diesels. I don't know if this has been
> > resolved yet.
> >
> > Also, the sometime maverick, David Pascoe (www.pascoe.com), has an article
> > posted explaining why he things gas is safer! (All of the fires around
> > here have been gasoline-powered boats ... but there are many more of them
> > to start with ... it gets complicated.)
> >
> > A friend with about 30-footer, twin gas engines, semi-planing, said that
> > when he bought the boat new about 15 years ago, the upgrade cost to
> > diesels was $50K - not the cost, just the _upgrade_ cost. Plus the exhaust
> > is dirtier, or smells so, etc.
> >
> > If I had a larger boat, or a displacement hull, and/or was going to pile
> > on lots of hours with heavy daily use, then I think that diesel is a
> > no-brainer.
> >
> > So, what pros and cons have you considered when thinking about this
> > project?
> >
> > ====
> >
> > Charles T. Low
> > www.boatdocking.com
> >
> > ====
> >
> > "André Langevin" <andre.langevin.DeleteThis@mediom.qc.ca> wrote in message
> > news:JfMJe.4336$6d4.473302@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >> This saturday while doing a SAR operation in Quebec, we've hit a
> >> submerged object not on the map (possibly a block of concrete laid by
> >> someone). Transmission is dead, propeller in 2 parts, propeller shaft
> >> and strut need reconstruction. Needless to say, we went to help someone
> >> but turned out to be the one to be saved too. This is very
> >> embarassing...
> >>
> >> Since the repairing may be in the 3000-5000 $ range, i'm really thinking
> >> this time to switch to a packaged Diesel/Sterndrive combination. There
> >> are currently many Diesel engines manufacturers offering to integrate
> >> either Alpha or Bravo sterndrive and converting from shaft/prop with a
> >> V-drive to sterndrive seems a good thing to do.
> >>
> >> I would like to know if anyone has experience in this kind of project and
> >> would have some reputable vendors or reseller to recommand ?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >
> >
 >> Stay informed about: Diesel repowering recommandation ? 

Jean and al....

Does someone knows a trick to import a US engine without taxes (gulp.....
should i wrote that ?)

Maybe going south with the boat and..... getting back on diesel ?

you can email me privately if you have idea.

"Jean Dufour" <moyac1.remouvedate DeleteThis @sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:42FB5CDF.C3E1B192@sympatico.ca...
> Salut André!
>
> Looking at your well thought reasearch and according to your
> motivations, I'd bet you'll end up with something sounding like
> Cummins in your boat!
>
> 25K$ by modern standards is the price of small well equiped car, so
> "amortissement" should be in the order of 5 years like for the car.
> You'll have fun with it for 20 years or more, even "if they don't
> build them like they used to". Wouldn't say that for the car! Volvo
> parts are also VERY expensives, they compare to OL' Perk prices. Built
> in the States, Cummins are "duty free" engines and parts. Consider
> buying South if you can. Something we didn't considered when we
> compared both engines types at the IMQ was the electronic injection,
> now common on every new diesels. This does wonders in fuel economy
> terms. And yes, they are built already to accept new alternative
> fuels: the oil I now call "solar power in a bottle".
>
> DO ponder the weight issue well before buying.
>
> Jean, in Montreal
>
> Un beau bonjour au monde de Quebec! On s'en vient vous voir au YCQ betôt!
>
> "André Langevin" wrote:
>>
>> Hi Charles,
>>
>> I did a few research recently and even compared many power/consumption
>> curves of new engines and here are my findings:
>>
>> -High speed, modern diesels (4000 rpm) are light but their consumption is
>> higher than low speed one (3000 rpm)
>> -They costs significantly less in USA than in Canada
>> -Cummins has a direct selling market (every dealer goes up to the
>> distributor for a quote and all quotes are the same)
>> -Each HP range has a "marketing price" which doesn't reflect the real
>> production cost
>> -The sterndrive in itself is very expensive
>>
>> So i have several quotes in hands for Diesel + sterndrive :
>>
>> Cummins MS4.2-200 for 25 000 $ excluding taxes (this is my preferate on
>> the
>> technical side, the most efficient one)
>> Cummins 2.8-200 for 27 000 $ excluding taxes (same HP but 15 % less
>> efficient but less weight)
>> Volvo Penta D3-160 for 21 000 $
>> Volvo Penta D4-200 for 25 000 $
>> Yanmars 210 HP.... too costly over 30 000 $
>>
>> My current boating usage are 200 hours of navigation per year at a median
>> speed of 1700 rpm (100 HP). At this speed my current engine guzzles 20
>> liters/hour and a Cummins 4.2 for example would ask only 5.7 liters per
>> hour
>> for the same power. So instead of paying 4000 $ of gas per summer i
>> would
>> pay 1200 $ of fuel. This is 3 800 $ per year less and would cover the
>> financing cost of the engine forever.
>>
>> The pros and cons for a Diesel remotoring from my perspective are:
>>
>> Pros:
>> Prepare for the future where gas price will be high
>> Preserve the value of the boat when the market become depressed in a 2.00
>> /Liter world
>> Preseve the fun of boating because today i have no fun when i fill up the
>> tank for 300 $
>> Get a better engine package than the one i have today
>> Possibility of using alternative fuel like Biodiesel
>> More efficiency (more power per liter)
>> Efficiency of the sterndrive compared to my current v-drive dinosaur
>> Longer range
>>
>> Cons:
>> Price to be amortized over 5-8 years
>>
>> This is where i stand today. If you want to see the photos of my broken
>> propeller and rudder, then go to:
>>
>> www.langevin.biz/marinette34/accident.htm
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> (And remember the fuel crisis... who wanted a Chrylser Le Baron with 400
>> cu
>> inches ? Who will want a Sea Ray with twin 7 liters MPI at 330 HP each
>> when
>> the liter be 2.00 $ ?)
>>
>> "Charles T. Low" <ctlow4 DeleteThis @boatUNdocking.com[withoutUN]> wrote in message
>> news:ec2ce$42fa8cb5$40ebc913$24724@ripnet.allthenewsgroups.com...
>> > André,
>> >
>> > Remind us of your boat. Some experts think that diesel engines are too
>> > heavy for "small" planing hull boats (up into the mid-30's of feet in
>> > length?). Also, they are very expensive compared with gas engines, and
>> > you
>> > won't see your savings repaid in fuel costs for many, many years,
>> > depending on usage. There are newer, lighter, high-output, light-weight
>> > diesels, but there is some concern that they might not have the
>> > longevity
>> > of older, heavier, slower-turning diesels. I don't know if this has
>> > been
>> > resolved yet.
>> >
>> > Also, the sometime maverick, David Pascoe (www.pascoe.com), has an
>> > article
>> > posted explaining why he things gas is safer! (All of the fires around
>> > here have been gasoline-powered boats ... but there are many more of
>> > them
>> > to start with ... it gets complicated.)
>> >
>> > A friend with about 30-footer, twin gas engines, semi-planing, said
>> > that
>> > when he bought the boat new about 15 years ago, the upgrade cost to
>> > diesels was $50K - not the cost, just the _upgrade_ cost. Plus the
>> > exhaust
>> > is dirtier, or smells so, etc.
>> >
>> > If I had a larger boat, or a displacement hull, and/or was going to
>> > pile
>> > on lots of hours with heavy daily use, then I think that diesel is a
>> > no-brainer.
>> >
>> > So, what pros and cons have you considered when thinking about this
>> > project?
>> >
>> > ====
>> >
>> > Charles T. Low
>> > www.boatdocking.com
>> >
>> > ====
>> >
>> > "André Langevin" <andre.langevin DeleteThis @mediom.qc.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:JfMJe.4336$6d4.473302@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> >> This saturday while doing a SAR operation in Quebec, we've hit a
>> >> submerged object not on the map (possibly a block of concrete laid by
>> >> someone). Transmission is dead, propeller in 2 parts, propeller
>> >> shaft
>> >> and strut need reconstruction. Needless to say, we went to help
>> >> someone
>> >> but turned out to be the one to be saved too. This is very
>> >> embarassing...
>> >>
>> >> Since the repairing may be in the 3000-5000 $ range, i'm really
>> >> thinking
>> >> this time to switch to a packaged Diesel/Sterndrive combination.
>> >> There
>> >> are currently many Diesel engines manufacturers offering to integrate
>> >> either Alpha or Bravo sterndrive and converting from shaft/prop with a
>> >> V-drive to sterndrive seems a good thing to do.
>> >>
>> >> I would like to know if anyone has experience in this kind of project
>> >> and
>> >> would have some reputable vendors or reseller to recommand ?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks
>> >
>> >
 >> Stay informed about: Diesel repowering recommandation ? 

André,

Thanks for that explanation. I'm surprised at the difference in fuel
operating costs. I understand that diesel contains more energy than gasoline
per unit volume, but are you sure the ratio is that high?

Perhaps you said before, but why are you considering a sterndrive? Why not
stay with a straight-shaft? A lot of power gets lost through the leg
(although that's not the whole story about pros and cons, I realize). And,
straight inboards are mechanically simpler.

Is that a planing hull I see in the picture? What's the design speed. At 100
hp, I'm betting that you're going faster than displacement, but not fully
planing. I ask because it bears on questions such as required engine power
and mileage.

Have you considered finding a rebuilt engine somewhere? You might save a lot
on capital costs. (I know of an unused rebuilt Merc 454 in my area.)

Thanks again.

Charles

====

Charles T. Low
www.boatdocking.com

====

"André Langevin" <andre.langevin.DeleteThis@mediom.qc.ca> wrote in message
news:skzKe.8780$6d4.1161917@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Hi Charles,
>
> I did a few research recently and even compared many power/consumption
> curves of new engines and here are my findings:
>
> -High speed, modern diesels (4000 rpm) are light but their consumption is
> higher than low speed one (3000 rpm)
> -They costs significantly less in USA than in Canada
> -Cummins has a direct selling market (every dealer goes up to the
> distributor for a quote and all quotes are the same)
> -Each HP range has a "marketing price" which doesn't reflect the real
> production cost
> -The sterndrive in itself is very expensive
>
> So i have several quotes in hands for Diesel + sterndrive :
>
> Cummins MS4.2-200 for 25 000 $ excluding taxes (this is my preferate on
> the technical side, the most efficient one)
> Cummins 2.8-200 for 27 000 $ excluding taxes (same HP but 15 % less
> efficient but less weight)
> Volvo Penta D3-160 for 21 000 $
> Volvo Penta D4-200 for 25 000 $
> Yanmars 210 HP.... too costly over 30 000 $
>
> My current boating usage are 200 hours of navigation per year at a median
> speed of 1700 rpm (100 HP). At this speed my current engine guzzles 20
> liters/hour and a Cummins 4.2 for example would ask only 5.7 liters per
> hour for the same power. So instead of paying 4000 $ of gas per summer i
> would pay 1200 $ of fuel. This is 3 800 $ per year less and would cover
> the financing cost of the engine forever.
>
> The pros and cons for a Diesel remotoring from my perspective are:
>
> Pros:
> Prepare for the future where gas price will be high
> Preserve the value of the boat when the market become depressed in a 2.00
> /Liter world
> Preseve the fun of boating because today i have no fun when i fill up the
> tank for 300 $
> Get a better engine package than the one i have today
> Possibility of using alternative fuel like Biodiesel
> More efficiency (more power per liter)
> Efficiency of the sterndrive compared to my current v-drive dinosaur
> Longer range
>
> Cons:
> Price to be amortized over 5-8 years
>
>
> This is where i stand today. If you want to see the photos of my broken
> propeller and rudder, then go to:
>
> www.langevin.biz/marinette34/accident.htm
>
> Cheers
>
>
> (And remember the fuel crisis... who wanted a Chrylser Le Baron with 400
> cu inches ? Who will want a Sea Ray with twin 7 liters MPI at 330 HP each
> when the liter be 2.00 $ ?)
 >> Stay informed about: Diesel repowering recommandation ? 

Hello Andre,

Some info from a post I saved ... that last part on used may be of
particular interest to you ... or at least maybe give you some ideas.

> I am commercial aquaculture farmer and many of us have 30' aluminum boat
> which we use everyday. The best setup is a diesel with marine transmission
> and an outdrive such as a konrad
> http://www.konradmarine.com/
> or sternpowr www.lancingmarine.com/Sternpowr_sterndrives.pdf
> 2 other drive system that seem good are www.dbdmarine.com and
> http://www.arneson-industries.com/
> All of these outdrives have no gearbox, forward reverse and neutral is
done
> inside the boat by the transmission. This is expensive though,
> $40000.00-$50000.00 can for one of the first 2 with a ~250hp diesel and
> transmission. The DBD outdrive is around6-7000 US. A common alternative
> around here is getting used Volvo diesel sterndrives from
> x-RCMP and coast guard boats. These are 6 cylinder ~230hp and can be
bought
> for around $10000.00can.
 >> Stay informed about: Diesel repowering recommandation ? 

Hi Bowgus,

Do you know for sure where i could get a Volvo stern used for 10 000 CAN ?
That's cheap for sure. I received several quotations from Canada and US at
20 000 CAN for used units.

I've emailed to DBD and their price is 7 000 US for the outdrive. Then i
would need a transmission so the price is very high. Same thing as Konrad
and Arneson.

"Bowgus" <bowgus RemoveThis @rogers.com> wrote in message
news:UfCdnZ2dnZ0Nw7qXnZ2dnRGiYt-dnZ2dRVn-z52dnZ0@rogers.com...
> Hello Andre,
>
> Some info from a post I saved ... that last part on used may be of
> particular interest to you ... or at least maybe give you some ideas.
>
>> I am commercial aquaculture farmer and many of us have 30' aluminum boat
>> which we use everyday. The best setup is a diesel with marine
>> transmission
>> and an outdrive such as a konrad
>> http://www.konradmarine.com/
>> or sternpowr www.lancingmarine.com/Sternpowr_sterndrives.pdf
>> 2 other drive system that seem good are www.dbdmarine.com and
>> http://www.arneson-industries.com/
>> All of these outdrives have no gearbox, forward reverse and neutral is
> done
>> inside the boat by the transmission. This is expensive though,
>> $40000.00-$50000.00 can for one of the first 2 with a ~250hp diesel and
>> transmission. The DBD outdrive is around6-7000 US. A common alternative
>> around here is getting used Volvo diesel sterndrives from
>> x-RCMP and coast guard boats. These are 6 cylinder ~230hp and can be
> bought
>> for around $10000.00can.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Diesel repowering recommandation ? 

Charles,

I currently have a Paragon V-drive, which is very long by modern standard.
To replace it the only way would be with a remote v-drive (with
homocinetical joints and all that stuff). The cost is around 8 000 CAN.
I can't go straight because there is no place to exit the propeller shaft
unless i go with an external outdrive.

Sterndrive has its drawback but it can run up in shallow waters (the Cummins
Mercruiser guide says max speed with stern up is 1200 RPM (63 HP) that
enough for approaching a shore.

Mercruiser parts can be found everywhere within 24 hours, great when
travelling.

I phoned everywhere even in the US to get price on used and new. Here are
the best prices received (less taxes)

Cummins 2.8 MS 200 (200 HP + Bravo2) 27 000 CAN
Cummins 4.2 MS 200 (200 HP + Bravo2) 26 000 CAN
Volvo new D3-160 SX (160 HP + SX drive) 16500 US
Volvo new D4-225 DP (225 HP + Duoprop) 23594 US
Volvo used 41B with DP (200 HP + Duoprop) 20 000 US (used but 1 year
warranty)
Yanmar new 4LHA-DTZP (200 HP + Bravo2) 28 330 CAN

I've listed the best price in each category because i've received many more
related to same configuration but more costly.

Yes its a planning hull. It goes to plane at 2700 rpm which yield 15 Knots
at about 150 HP of my 318 ratings. The 4 bbl doesn't open before 3000 RPM.
So it need about 40 L/hour to stay on plane at this speed. My measure are
real with the Fuel 2100 and when i come at the tank i could say in advance
how much liters will enter in at 1 liter close.

All consumption figures on Cummins, Volvo, Caterpillar are based on prop
curves which is a mathematical projection of the power absorbed by the
propeller which is far from the dynamometer curve where they almost stall
the engine at different speed. Consumption is different between a
dynamometer curve and a prop curves also because the propeller is designed
not to stall the engine in a boat (you understand why). So i agree the
ratio might be lower but not that much since i've discussed with many boat
owner and it is common to see 150 HP Diesel engines at full throttle asking
only 4-5 gph (us) which is about 15-20 liter/ hour.

If anyone as real numbers to share i would appreciate !

"Charles T. Low" <ctlow4.RemoveThis@boatUNdocking.com[withoutUN]> wrote in message
news:a68ae$42ff393b$40ebd595$1938@ripnet.allthenewsgroups.com...
> André,
>
> Thanks for that explanation. I'm surprised at the difference in fuel
> operating costs. I understand that diesel contains more energy than
> gasoline per unit volume, but are you sure the ratio is that high?
>
> Perhaps you said before, but why are you considering a sterndrive? Why not
> stay with a straight-shaft? A lot of power gets lost through the leg
> (although that's not the whole story about pros and cons, I realize). And,
> straight inboards are mechanically simpler.
>
> Is that a planing hull I see in the picture? What's the design speed. At
> 100 hp, I'm betting that you're going faster than displacement, but not
> fully planing. I ask because it bears on questions such as required engine
> power and mileage.
>
> Have you considered finding a rebuilt engine somewhere? You might save a
> lot on capital costs. (I know of an unused rebuilt Merc 454 in my area.)
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Charles
>
> ====
>
> Charles T. Low
> www.boatdocking.com
>
> ====
>
> "André Langevin" <andre.langevin.RemoveThis@mediom.qc.ca> wrote in message
> news:skzKe.8780$6d4.1161917@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> Hi Charles,
>>
>> I did a few research recently and even compared many power/consumption
>> curves of new engines and here are my findings:
>>
>> -High speed, modern diesels (4000 rpm) are light but their consumption is
>> higher than low speed one (3000 rpm)
>> -They costs significantly less in USA than in Canada
>> -Cummins has a direct selling market (every dealer goes up to the
>> distributor for a quote and all quotes are the same)
>> -Each HP range has a "marketing price" which doesn't reflect the real
>> production cost
>> -The sterndrive in itself is very expensive
>>
>> So i have several quotes in hands for Diesel + sterndrive :
>>
>> Cummins MS4.2-200 for 25 000 $ excluding taxes (this is my preferate on
>> the technical side, the most efficient one)
>> Cummins 2.8-200 for 27 000 $ excluding taxes (same HP but 15 % less
>> efficient but less weight)
>> Volvo Penta D3-160 for 21 000 $
>> Volvo Penta D4-200 for 25 000 $
>> Yanmars 210 HP.... too costly over 30 000 $
>>
>> My current boating usage are 200 hours of navigation per year at a median
>> speed of 1700 rpm (100 HP). At this speed my current engine guzzles 20
>> liters/hour and a Cummins 4.2 for example would ask only 5.7 liters per
>> hour for the same power. So instead of paying 4000 $ of gas per summer
>> i would pay 1200 $ of fuel. This is 3 800 $ per year less and would
>> cover the financing cost of the engine forever.
>>
>> The pros and cons for a Diesel remotoring from my perspective are:
>>
>> Pros:
>> Prepare for the future where gas price will be high
>> Preserve the value of the boat when the market become depressed in a 2.00
>> /Liter world
>> Preseve the fun of boating because today i have no fun when i fill up the
>> tank for 300 $
>> Get a better engine package than the one i have today
>> Possibility of using alternative fuel like Biodiesel
>> More efficiency (more power per liter)
>> Efficiency of the sterndrive compared to my current v-drive dinosaur
>> Longer range
>>
>> Cons:
>> Price to be amortized over 5-8 years
>>
>>
>> This is where i stand today. If you want to see the photos of my broken
>> propeller and rudder, then go to:
>>
>> www.langevin.biz/marinette34/accident.htm
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>> (And remember the fuel crisis... who wanted a Chrylser Le Baron with 400
>> cu inches ? Who will want a Sea Ray with twin 7 liters MPI at 330 HP
>> each when the liter be 2.00 $ ?)
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Diesel repowering recommandation ? 

> Do you know for sure where i could get a Volvo stern used for 10 000 CAN ?
No idea ... was just passing on a diesel/oudrive related post that I had
kept.
 >> Stay informed about: Diesel repowering recommandation ? 

I can't resist the temptation to post some quotation just received today:

D3-160A complete sterndive package $24315
D3-160I inboard package $21450 (plus extra for v-drive upgrade)
D4-180I $?
D4-210I inboard package $26852 (plus extra for v-drive upgrade)
D4-210A complete sterndive package $32747

KAD32P duoprop 170hp $27125
AD41P duoprop 200hp $29,400
TAMD41P / HS45A gear $23,900
TAMD41P / HS63V vdrive gear approx $25,700


"Bowgus" <bowgus DeleteThis @rogers.com> wrote in message
news:UfCdnZ2dnZ0Nw7qXnZ2dnRGiYt-dnZ2dRVn-z52dnZ0@rogers.com...
> Hello Andre,
>
> Some info from a post I saved ... that last part on used may be of
> particular interest to you ... or at least maybe give you some ideas.
>
>> I am commercial aquaculture farmer and many of us have 30' aluminum boat
>> which we use everyday. The best setup is a diesel with marine
>> transmission
>> and an outdrive such as a konrad
>> http://www.konradmarine.com/
>> or sternpowr www.lancingmarine.com/Sternpowr_sterndrives.pdf
>> 2 other drive system that seem good are www.dbdmarine.com and
>> http://www.arneson-industries.com/
>> All of these outdrives have no gearbox, forward reverse and neutral is
> done
>> inside the boat by the transmission. This is expensive though,
>> $40000.00-$50000.00 can for one of the first 2 with a ~250hp diesel and
>> transmission. The DBD outdrive is around6-7000 US. A common alternative
>> around here is getting used Volvo diesel sterndrives from
>> x-RCMP and coast guard boats. These are 6 cylinder ~230hp and can be
> bought
>> for around $10000.00can.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Diesel repowering recommandation ? 

I'll bet that used 40 hp outboard is starting to look mighty attractive .

"André Langevin" <andre.langevin DeleteThis @mediom.qc.ca> wrote in message
news:QbULe.5826$7R.155583@news20.bellglobal.com...
> I can't resist the temptation to post some quotation just received today:
>
> D3-160A complete sterndive package $24315
> D3-160I inboard package $21450 (plus extra for v-drive upgrade)
> D4-180I $?
> D4-210I inboard package $26852 (plus extra for v-drive upgrade)
> D4-210A complete sterndive package $32747
>
> KAD32P duoprop 170hp $27125
> AD41P duoprop 200hp $29,400
> TAMD41P / HS45A gear $23,900
> TAMD41P / HS63V vdrive gear approx $25,700
 >> Stay informed about: Diesel repowering recommandation ? 

Yeah maybe i should tie 5 together with tape to get 200 HP

"Bowgus" <bowgus.DeleteThis@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:Re-dnS1Hg5tnMp3eRVn-qg@rogers.com...
> I'll bet that used 40 hp outboard is starting to look mighty attractive
> .
>
> "André Langevin" <andre.langevin.DeleteThis@mediom.qc.ca> wrote in message
> news:QbULe.5826$7R.155583@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> I can't resist the temptation to post some quotation just received today:
>>
>> D3-160A complete sterndive package $24315
>> D3-160I inboard package $21450 (plus extra for v-drive upgrade)
>> D4-180I $?
>> D4-210I inboard package $26852 (plus extra for v-drive upgrade)
>> D4-210A complete sterndive package $32747
>>
>> KAD32P duoprop 170hp $27125
>> AD41P duoprop 200hp $29,400
>> TAMD41P / HS45A gear $23,900
>> TAMD41P / HS63V vdrive gear approx $25,700
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Diesel repowering recommandation ? 

Thank you, and good luck on your project! I hope you keep us informed as you
go along.

Charles

====

Charles T. Low
www.boatdocking.com

====

"André Langevin" <andre.langevin RemoveThis @mediom.qc.ca> wrote in message
news:LQLLe.2378$7R.84520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Charles,
>
> I currently have a Paragon V-drive, which is very long by modern
> standard. To replace it the only way would be with a remote v-drive (with
> homocinetical joints and all that stuff). The cost is around 8 000 CAN.
> I can't go straight because there is no place to exit the propeller shaft
> unless i go with an external outdrive.
>
> Sterndrive has its drawback but it can run up in shallow waters (the
> Cummins Mercruiser guide says max speed with stern up is 1200 RPM (63 HP)
> that enough for approaching a shore.
>
> Mercruiser parts can be found everywhere within 24 hours, great when
> travelling.
>
> I phoned everywhere even in the US to get price on used and new. Here
> are the best prices received (less taxes)
>
> Cummins 2.8 MS 200 (200 HP + Bravo2) 27 000 CAN
> Cummins 4.2 MS 200 (200 HP + Bravo2) 26 000 CAN
> Volvo new D3-160 SX (160 HP + SX drive) 16500 US
> Volvo new D4-225 DP (225 HP + Duoprop) 23594 US
> Volvo used 41B with DP (200 HP + Duoprop) 20 000 US (used but 1 year
> warranty)
> Yanmar new 4LHA-DTZP (200 HP + Bravo2) 28 330 CAN
>
> I've listed the best price in each category because i've received many
> more related to same configuration but more costly.
>
> Yes its a planning hull. It goes to plane at 2700 rpm which yield 15
> Knots at about 150 HP of my 318 ratings. The 4 bbl doesn't open before
> 3000 RPM. So it need about 40 L/hour to stay on plane at this speed. My
> measure are real with the Fuel 2100 and when i come at the tank i could
> say in advance how much liters will enter in at 1 liter close.
>
> All consumption figures on Cummins, Volvo, Caterpillar are based on prop
> curves which is a mathematical projection of the power absorbed by the
> propeller which is far from the dynamometer curve where they almost stall
> the engine at different speed. Consumption is different between a
> dynamometer curve and a prop curves also because the propeller is designed
> not to stall the engine in a boat (you understand why). So i agree the
> ratio might be lower but not that much since i've discussed with many boat
> owner and it is common to see 150 HP Diesel engines at full throttle
> asking only 4-5 gph (us) which is about 15-20 liter/ hour.
>
> If anyone as real numbers to share i would appreciate !
 >> Stay informed about: Diesel repowering recommandation ? 

Well my decision is taken so if


"Charles T. Low" <ctlow4.TakeThisOut@boatUNdocking.com[withoutUN]> wrote in message
news:be263$430f44b4$40ebcde5$1825@ripnet.allthenewsgroups.com...
> Thank you, and good luck on your project! I hope you keep us informed as
> you go along.
>
> Charles
>
> ====
>
> Charles T. Low
> www.boatdocking.com
>
> ====
>
> "André Langevin" <andre.langevin.TakeThisOut@mediom.qc.ca> wrote in message
> news:LQLLe.2378$7R.84520@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> Charles,
>>
>> I currently have a Paragon V-drive, which is very long by modern
>> standard. To replace it the only way would be with a remote v-drive (with
>> homocinetical joints and all that stuff). The cost is around 8 000 CAN.
>> I can't go straight because there is no place to exit the propeller shaft
>> unless i go with an external outdrive.
>>
>> Sterndrive has its drawback but it can run up in shallow waters (the
>> Cummins Mercruiser guide says max speed with stern up is 1200 RPM (63 HP)
>> that enough for approaching a shore.
>>
>> Mercruiser parts can be found everywhere within 24 hours, great when
>> travelling.
>>
>> I phoned everywhere even in the US to get price on used and new. Here
>> are the best prices received (less taxes)
>>
>> Cummins 2.8 MS 200 (200 HP + Bravo2) 27 000 CAN
>> Cummins 4.2 MS 200 (200 HP + Bravo2) 26 000 CAN
>> Volvo new D3-160 SX (160 HP + SX drive) 16500 US
>> Volvo new D4-225 DP (225 HP + Duoprop) 23594 US
>> Volvo used 41B with DP (200 HP + Duoprop) 20 000 US (used but 1 year
>> warranty)
>> Yanmar new 4LHA-DTZP (200 HP + Bravo2) 28 330 CAN
>>
>> I've listed the best price in each category because i've received many
>> more related to same configuration but more costly.
>>
>> Yes its a planning hull. It goes to plane at 2700 rpm which yield 15
>> Knots at about 150 HP of my 318 ratings. The 4 bbl doesn't open before
>> 3000 RPM. So it need about 40 L/hour to stay on plane at this speed. My
>> measure are real with the Fuel 2100 and when i come at the tank i could
>> say in advance how much liters will enter in at 1 liter close.
>>
>> All consumption figures on Cummins, Volvo, Caterpillar are based on prop
>> curves which is a mathematical projection of the power absorbed by the
>> propeller which is far from the dynamometer curve where they almost stall
>> the engine at different speed. Consumption is different between a
>> dynamometer curve and a prop curves also because the propeller is
>> designed not to stall the engine in a boat (you understand why). So i
>> agree the ratio might be lower but not that much since i've discussed
>> with many boat owner and it is common to see 150 HP Diesel engines at
>> full throttle asking only 4-5 gph (us) which is about 15-20 liter/ hour.
>>
>> If anyone as real numbers to share i would appreciate !
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Diesel repowering recommandation ?