DEFENDING THE HONOR OF MY PELICAN/COLEMAN CANOE!

 >Garrison Hilliard garrison.RemoveThis@efn.org

typed in >Message-ID: <oug2kv800evnaj63ugqogpd49ac4apragp.RemoveThis@4ax.com>

 >My green Ram-X 15' 6" "Explorer DLX" may not be the fastest
 >or most easily paddled canoe out there but, by gum, it's
 >extremely tough, extremely stable, and was amazingly inexpensive
 >to purchase at the local "Dick's" sporting goods store! Also,
 >it's a WONDERFUL boat for the purposes I use it for - fishing,

 >recreational paddling on placid park lakes, and occasional
 >trips down the slow, scenic rivers in the Midwest. So fie
 >upon all of you canoe snobs out there... I bet that my
 >Pelican/Coleman boat will still be in good shape and in use long
 >after you've repaired and repaired and thrown away your

 >Ols Town", "Weneoah", et al!
 >

I'm not much of a canoe snob, in fact, I generally kayak, but you get what you
pay for in canoes. Is a coleman ok to screw around on a lake or slow river?
sure it is.
But the hull is slow, turns badly and the descending keel line wears quickly.
Will it out last a "Old Town" or "Wenonah"? Not in your wildest dreams. If you
do not whitewater boat, there is no reason why any top end canoe would not last
a life time. The Old Town Discovery series are just as durable as the RamX,
maybe more so (and it's just as heavy). Even the ABS boats will hold up to
abuse, and generally about 10 lbs lighter in similar boats. You would be amazed
at just how much abuse that you can give a fiberglass boat without
any real damage.

If you are happy with you boat and that's what you can afford, fine. I'm glad
that you can get on the water. Don't kid yourself into thinking that it is the
best product for
the job.


SYOTR
Larry C.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DEFENDING THE HONOR OF MY PELICAN/COLEMAN CANOE! 

lrcable DeleteThis @aol.comnospam (Larry Cable) wrote:
  >>Garrison Hilliard garrison DeleteThis @efn.org

 >I'm not much of a canoe snob,

Yes, you are, as we shall see.

 >in fact, I generally kayak, but you get what you
 >pay for in canoes. Is a coleman ok to screw around on a lake or slow river?
 >sure it is.

Note that you just put your agreement on record.

 >But the hull is slow, turns badly and the descending keel line wears quickly.
 >Will it out last a "Old Town" or "Wenonah"? Not in your wildest dreams. If you
 >do not whitewater boat, there is no reason why any top end canoe would not last
 >a life time.

And there's no reason for me to buy a top-price (note, not necessarily top-end) canoe.

 > The Old Town Discovery series are just as durable as the RamX,
 >maybe more so (and it's just as heavy). Even the ABS boats will hold up to
 >abuse, and generally about 10 lbs lighter in similar boats. You would be amazed
 >at just how much abuse that you can give a fiberglass boat without
 >any real damage.

And you'd be amazed at how durable and easily repaired my Ram-X hull is,

 >If you are happy with you boat and that's what you can afford, fine. I'm glad
 >that you can get on the water. Don't kid yourself into thinking that it is the
 >best product for
 >the job.

But you practically said it was in your opening remark!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DEFENDING THE HONOR OF MY PELICAN/COLEMAN CANOE! 

Garrison Hilliard wrote:
 >
 > My green Ram-X 15' 6" "Explorer DLX" may not be the fastest
 > or most easily paddled canoe out there but, by gum, it's
 > extremely tough, extremely stable, and was amazingly inexpensive
 > to purchase at the local "Dick's" sporting goods store! Also,
 > it's a WONDERFUL boat for the purposes I use it for - fishing,
 > recreational paddling on placid park lakes, and occasional
 > trips down the slow, scenic rivers in the Midwest.
[deletia]

Right on man! 'Tis bettter to be on the water than standin' on the shore
wishin'!

What rivers you boat in the midwest? Any in MO? We have a lot! I WW
kayak mostly, but have boated most major flatwater rivers in MO too!

--
John Kuthe,
1st rule of Govt: protect people from Govt
2nd rule of Govt: protect people from each other
BUT: It must *never* become the job of Govt to protect people from
themselves!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DEFENDING THE HONOR OF MY PELICAN/COLEMAN CANOE! 

"Garrison Hilliard" <garrison DeleteThis @efn.org> typed

 > lrcable DeleteThis @aol.comnospam (Larry Cable) wrote:
   > >>Garrison Hilliard garrison DeleteThis @efn.org
 >
  > >I'm not much of a canoe snob,
 >
 > Yes, you are, as we shall see.
 >
  > >in fact, I generally kayak, but you get what you
  > >pay for in canoes. Is a coleman ok to screw around on a lake or slow river?
  > >sure it is.
 >
 > Note that you just put your agreement on record.
 >
  > >But the hull is slow, turns badly and the descending keel line wears quickly.
  > >Will it out last a "Old Town" or "Wenonah"? Not in your wildest dreams. If you
  > >do not whitewater boat, there is no reason why any top end canoe would not last
  > >a life time.
 >
 > And there's no reason for me to buy a top-price (note, not necessarily top-end) canoe.
 >
  > > The Old Town Discovery series are just as durable as the RamX,
  > >maybe more so (and it's just as heavy). Even the ABS boats will hold up to
  > >abuse, and generally about 10 lbs lighter in similar boats. You would be
  > >amazed at just how much abuse that you can give a fiberglass boat without
  > >any real damage.
 >
 > And you'd be amazed at how durable and easily repaired my Ram-X hull is,
 >
  > >If you are happy with you boat and that's what you can afford, fine. I'm glad
  > >that you can get on the water. Don't kid yourself into thinking that it is
  > >the best product for the job.
 >
 > But you practically said it was in your opening remark!

Eh, Garrison, help me; I'm curious. How is "[i]s a coleman ok ...
sure it is" practically the same as "[the Coleman is] the best product
for the job"? Saying that something is "ok" for low-intensity usage
is saying that it is marginally satisfactory; considerably different
from saying it is "the best". Yer not trolling *us*, are you?

If the Coleman is adequate for yer purposes, then perhaps it is the
right boat for you. But your purpose deson't seem to be *boating*, it
seems to be *fishing*! Try yer Coleman on a six-day tour of the
Boundary Waters, or a week on a Canadian river, or a day on Class II
whitewater, and you will see that, when *canoeing* is the primary
purpose, the Coleman is the one of the worst canoes that money can
buy. Buying the worst canoe for the purpose is definitely NOT thrifty
or wise, but buying a $2,000 We-noh-nah when all you need is a $350
Coleman is not very smart, either!

--
-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty

======================================================================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
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 >> Stay informed about: DEFENDING THE HONOR OF MY PELICAN/COLEMAN CANOE! 

In article <3f4192b0.TakeThisOut@news.victoria.tc.ca>, "Garrison Hilliard"
<garrison.TakeThisOut@efn.org> writes:

 >And you'd be amazed at how durable and easily repaired my Ram-X hull is,
 >
  >>If you are happy with you boat and that's what you can afford, fine. I'm
 >glad
  >>that you can get on the water. Don't kid yourself into thinking that it is
 >the
  >>best product for
  >>the job.
 >
 >But you practically said it was in your opening remark!

I think you're missing the point. The buyers of coleman canoes are generally
just like the buyers of Sea Eagle inflatable kayaks, first time buyers with
little experience or knowledge of boat performance or durablity. You don't have
to drop thousands of dollars for a decent boat and for a few hundred more than
these economy boats, you can get a boat that will perform and last a lifetime.
Take a Mohawk Nova 17, this boat list for $820 dollars direct from Mohawk and
is a far superior boat in all ways to
the Coleman. You can generally pick up the Old Town Discovery series boat for
a couple hundred under that price. While I find the extra weight of Poly hull a
bit cumbersome, the hull design on these boats are decent and the outfitting is
fair if you stay away from the plastic tractor seats.

I've had this same discussion on the inflatable side about Sea Eagles and
others.
But no matter what is said in their defense, the boat is slow, it doesn't
really have a self bailing system and the construction method is suspect. For
pretty close to the same money, you can get a far superior boat from someone
like Innova.

Do the research before you buy. You don't have to accept a poor performing boat
just because you are on a budget.


SYOTR
Larry C.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DEFENDING THE HONOR OF MY PELICAN/COLEMAN CANOE! 

Larry Cable (lrcable@aol.comnospam) writes:

 >... Don't kid yourself into thinking that it is the
 > best product for
 > the job.

don't kid YOURSELF that it isn't.

I get into this argument frequently with boat snobs at rec.boats.building.
The best boat is the cheapest boat which meets your requirements. Spending
more on a boat than you have to is ostentation, conspicuous consumption, a
waste of money. The people at Coleman know this and produce good cheap
boats which satisfy the requirements of most cottage owners. People who
pay more for that requirement are victims of snob advertising. An
expensive boat will not feed you after you're too old to earn a living. It
just sits there reminding you of what a fool you've been. The money you
saved buying the cheapest boat will feed you after you are too old to
work.

BTW you can measure the cost of a boat in a few different ways, dollars
per year, dollars per hour of use, and for non-solo boats dollars per
person per hour of use. You have to include things like insurance,
storage, and transportation if any. There are probably more ways of
measuring the cost.

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 >ag384@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (William R. Watt)

Typed in >Message-ID: <bhtbml$p3v$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>

 >I get into this argument frequently with boat snobs at rec.boats.building.
 >The best boat is the cheapest boat which meets your requirements. Spending
 >more on a boat than you have to is ostentation, conspicuous consumption, a

 >waste of money. The people at Coleman know this and produce good cheap
 >boats which satisfy the requirements of most cottage owners. People who
 >pay more for that requirement are victims of snob advertising. An
 >expensive boat will not feed you after you're too old to earn a livin

 >t
 >just sits there reminding you of what a fool you've been. The money you
 >saved buying the cheapest boat will feed you after you are too old to

 >work.
 >

I don't buy this line. Colemans are marketed to the first time buyer that
doesn't know squat about how a canoe should really perform. Do you know any
experienced canoeist that make a Coleman their first choice? Why? Is it because
they are snobs? How about that they are smart enough to realize that they can
get a far superior product for a couple of hundred more.

If all you are doing is dinking around in the lake, these boats are fine. That
doesn't make them a particularly good buy or a good choice. There are several
reasonably
priced boats that perform better. Even the old Grummans, or Marathons, which
every they call themselves these days, are superior boats. What does a grummie
cost these days?


SYOTR
Larry C.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DEFENDING THE HONOR OF MY PELICAN/COLEMAN CANOE! 

Larry Cable (lrcable@aol.comnospam) writes:

 > I don't buy this line. Colemans are marketed to the first time buyer that
 > doesn't know squat about how a canoe should really perform. Do you know any
 > experienced canoeist that make a Coleman their first choice? Why? Is it because
 > they are snobs? How about that they are smart enough to realize that they can
 > get a far superior product for a couple of hundred more.

I don't know what you are basing those statements on but here in Ontario
there are families with generations of experience in small boats of all
kinds. My father was a prospector and my grandfather a trapper and guide.
They weren't farting about in expensive boats for a lark on their summer
vacations. We have a long standing tradtion hereabouts of waterfront
family cottages handed down from generation to generation. There are very
few first time buyers unless they are immigrants and I admit there are a
some of those. Coleman's sell to cottage owners who have more sense than
your trend following "canoeist".

 >
 > If all you are doing is dinking around in the lake, these boats are
fine. That > doesn't make them a particularly good buy or a good choice.
There are several > reasonably > priced boats that perform better. Even
the old Grummans, or Marathons, which > every they call themselves these
days, are superior boats. What does a grummie > cost these days? > > >
SYOTR > Larry C.

you can't buy those other boats with Canadian Tire money.


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 >> Stay informed about: DEFENDING THE HONOR OF MY PELICAN/COLEMAN CANOE! 

"William R. Watt" <ag384.DeleteThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:bhtkbc$gc8$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...

 > Coleman's sell to cottage owners who have more sense than
 > your trend following "canoeist".

No... Coleman sells to people that are: a) ignorant of canoe design, and/or,
b) so cheap all they care about is the price.

If you're still happy with your Coleman after a lifetime of use, you deserve
it. (Just don't paddle a "real" canoe for a day and ruin your grand
illusion.)

You could easily buy a decent used canoe for the price of the Coleman that
will outperform and outlast it.

I think the original post was just a troll, anyhow....

Good paddling,
Bob Scott




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 >> Stay informed about: DEFENDING THE HONOR OF MY PELICAN/COLEMAN CANOE! 

lrcable.DeleteThis@aol.comnospam (Larry Cable) wrote in message news:<20030819064029.02537.00000092.DeleteThis@mb-m23.aol.com>...

  > >But you practically said it was in your opening remark!
 >
 > I think you're missing the point.

And I know that you are.

 > The buyers of coleman canoes are generally
 > just like the buyers of Sea Eagle inflatable kayaks, first time buyers with
 > little experience or knowledge of boat performance or durablity.

Maybe generally, but I in no way fit your assumption (when you
assume...)! I'm
an experienced boater/sailor who wanted a boat that was tough and
suited for what I wanted to do with it (fishing, park lake paddling,
minor river travel) qand the Pelican "Explorer" fit the bill! I've
used it many times and have
absolutely zilcho, nada, the big goose egg complaints about the
canoe... why are you striving so hard to say that I should?


 > You don't have
 > to drop thousands of dollars for a decent boat and for a few hundred more than
 > these economy boats, you can get a boat that will perform and last a lifetime.

Who says my "Explorer" won't?


 > Take a Mohawk Nova 17, this boat list for $820 dollars direct from Mohawk and
 > is a far superior boat in all ways to
 > the Coleman. You can generally pick up the Old Town Discovery series boat for
 > a couple hundred under that price. While I find the extra weight of Poly hull a
 > bit cumbersome, the hull design on these boats are decent and the outfitting is
 > fair if you stay away from the plastic tractor seats.


So for twice and a half times what I paid for my boat, I can get a.
larger-than-I-wanted canoe made of similar materials with inferior
seats? Gee, thanks!

 > I've had this same discussion on the inflatable side about Sea Eagles and
 > others.
 > But no matter what is said in their defense, the boat is slow, it doesn't
 > really have a self bailing system and the construction method is suspect. For
 > pretty close to the same money, you can get a far superior boat from someone
 > like Innova.

Which has squat to to with Pelican/Coleman canoes versus canoe snobs.

 > Do the research before you buy. You don't have to accept a poor performing boat
 > just because you are on a budget.

Nor do I have to purchase an over-priced boat to paddle just because
some fudgehead assumes that he knows what I want my boat for!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DEFENDING THE HONOR OF MY PELICAN/COLEMAN CANOE! 

"Bob" <desmobob.RemoveThis@capital.net> wrote:
  >> Coleman's sell to cottage owners who have more sense than
  >> your trend following "canoeist".
 >
 >No... Coleman sells to people that are: a) ignorant of canoe design, and/or,
 >b) so cheap all they care about is the price.

Guess again, monkey-boy!

 >If you're still happy with your Coleman after a lifetime of use, you deserve
 >it. (Just don't paddle a "real" canoe for a day and ruin your grand
 >illusion.)


I have no illusions... I sinply have an inexpansive canoe that fits my needs perfectly (I just used it to circumnavigate and
fish the 188 acres of "Winton Woods Lake"... it was the perfect boat to slip over those mud flats and submerged logs).

 >You could easily buy a decent used canoe for the price of the Coleman that
 >will outperform and outlast it.

Prove it.

 >I think the original post was just a troll, anyhow....


Since it seems that I'm not...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DEFENDING THE HONOR OF MY PELICAN/COLEMAN CANOE! 

 >I don't know what you are basing those statements on but here in Ontario
 >there are families with generations of experience in small boats of all
 >kinds. My father was a prospector and my grandfather a trapper and guide.
 >They weren't farting about in expensive boats for a lark on their summer
 >vacations. We have a long standing tradtion hereabouts of waterfront
 >family cottages handed down from generation to generation. There are very
 >few first time buyers unless they are immigrants and I admit there are a
 >some of those. Coleman's sell to cottage owners who have more sense than
 >your trend following "canoeist".
 >
Curious, I used to vacation in Ontario as a kid and most of the cottages there
had beautiful wood and canvas canoes or Grummans (and this was no rich man's
hangout). Of course that was a long time ago.
But how does owning or recommending an Old Town rate as "trend following"?
I grew up as a farmer and was taught to buy what works and lasts. I have seen
the aluminum frame on many a Coleman bent from normal use. My OT has dings
from river use. But it has also served well as a fishing platform and lake
paddling boat and should last for as long as I will need it. When I spread the
cost out over 20 years, it should cost less than $50 per year (and it's already
9 years old so I might make 30 or more), few Colemans will last that long.
There is nothing wrong with a Coleman if you don't mind a slow fragile but
inexpensive boat. But its like using generic fishing line. It works, it's
cheap but it can break easier than Stren. Catch nothing but small fish and you
will be fine. Its not a matter of snobbery but priorities.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DEFENDING THE HONOR OF MY PELICAN/COLEMAN CANOE! 

In article <d01cae46.0308191657.4c6ac0c8.TakeThisOut@posting.google.com>, garrison.TakeThisOut@efn.org
(Garrison Hilliard) writes:

 >Nor do I have to purchase an over-priced boat to paddle just because
 >some fudgehead assumes that he knows what I want my boat for!
 >
 >

So what you are really saying is that you are a pinhead that is spouting off
about something you don't know squat about. If you are happy paddling a plastic
trashcan with an aluminum frame out of a lawn chair, more power to you.

Last post on this thread, since you don't seem inclined to be civil.

There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of stupid people.


SYOTR
Larry C.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DEFENDING THE HONOR OF MY PELICAN/COLEMAN CANOE!