Craziest Bravado story

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Hi Tinkerntom,

On 15 Jan 2005 18:58:56 -0800, you wrote:

 > He figured that if he went to the highest lift, and found the
 > steepest run, that by the time he got to the bottom, he would know
 > how to ski.

That reminds me a bit of my very first experience on skis, though I
did happily accept a bit of training help from a friend who was an
experienced skier.

I was 15, and a group of us went for a weekend at the local ski
resort where one of our friend's parents worked. Only two of our
group of five could already ski, so it was up to them to help the
rest of us get started.

We spent the first day on the rope tow (I think they called it the
"bunny slope" or something like that), and we practiced a few basics.
I felt pretty good after that first day, so the next day, I took the
chair up to the "intermediate" slope. It was great! I skied all day
and even into the night under the lights. Several nice runs, and I
never fell.

I used to see many new skiers come home from their early experiences
with a cast on one of their legs, but of course, since I was a
musician, I broke my thumb! If it were entirely my fault, I could
have accepted this humiliation a bit better, but it was actually one
of my other inexperienced friends who ran over me. I had stopped at
the bottom of my final run on that second night, and was about to
take the skis off when this other newbie (naturally, he was the
biggest of our bunch) was coming in for a landing right behind me,
and apparently, he hadn't quite sorted out the braking system on his
skis yet, so he used me as a backup.

To add insult to injury, the next day when I tried to get out of bed,
the moment I put a bit of pressure on my feet to stand up, I crumpled
to the floor! I guess there were some muscles used in skiing that I
hadn't bothered to train properly, and I spent the next several days
learning how to walk again!

- --
Melissa

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Melissa, the most common serious ski injury use to be broken legs with
the old binding system. So you don't feel so bad, the most common
injury now is broken thumbs. Which is due to skiers holding their poles
improperly. Seems sort of weird, but its true.

The above story occurred close to 15 years ago, and I suspect that the
Ski Patrol can take you off the mountain now for your protection. I
hope that there is never a time when kayaking gets so regulated. That
is why it is probably important for the community to check up on itself
to make sure we are advocating sound practices. TnT
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On 15-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" <tnksng.RemoveThis@qwest.net> wrote:

 > Someone apparently
 > notified the SkiPatrol eventually, though they were not able to do
 > anything as long as he did not consent to their help.

Colorado's freedom to die. Around here, ski patrol can kick
you off the hills if they think you are not qualified for
the conditions or are at risk.

Mike<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Melissa <willkayakforfoodREMOVE_THIS.DeleteThis@gmx.net> wrote in news:75ko29r7x26b
$.dlg@uni-berlin.de:

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 > Hi Tinkerntom,
 >
 > On 15 Jan 2005 18:58:56 -0800, you wrote:
 >
  >> He figured that if he went to the highest lift, and found the
  >> steepest run, that by the time he got to the bottom, he would know how
  >> to ski.
 >
 > That reminds me a bit of my very first experience on skis, though I
 > did happily accept a bit of training help from a friend who was an
 > experienced skier.
 >
 > I was 15, and a group of us went for a weekend at the local ski
 > resort where one of our friend's parents worked. Only two of our
 > group of five could already ski, so it was up to them to help the
 > rest of us get started.
 >
 > We spent the first day on the rope tow (I think they called it the
 > "bunny slope" or something like that), and we practiced a few basics.
 > I felt pretty good after that first day, so the next day, I took the
 > chair up to the "intermediate" slope. It was great! I skied all day
 > and even into the night under the lights. Several nice runs, and I
 > never fell.

If you don't fall you're not trying hard enough.

Since Tinkertom specifically mentioned Keystone I can offer a similar
Keystone experience. In the mid 70's I was working for a band that was
playing at a hotel near Keystone. I had been skiing for five years or so
but no one else in the band had any experience. I gave them some pointers
on the bunny slope down near the parking lot and then went up the chair for
a couple of runs before coming back to check on their progress. One of them
(Bruce) seemed to be getting it so I suggested we take the chair up and take
the long meandering beginners run down. Once on the chair up into the trees
and away from the parking lot the beginner commented that "this is real
skiing...not that flat spot near the parking lot". We spent the rest of the
day up on the mountain skiing progressively more difficult slopes until he
was skiing intermediate runs with ease. Four weeks later we were skiing the
advanced upper bowls of A Basin along side a woman from the ski patrol. He
was ski patrolling himself a couple years after that, married the woman from
the ski patrol, who learned how to play the bass and played in Bruce's band.

BTW, to Tinkertom...where is the triple black diamond run at Keystone? When
I skied there they only had one black diamond run and it was pretty marginal
for that classification.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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John Fereira wrote:

 >
 > BTW, to Tinkertom...where is the triple black diamond run at
Keystone? When
 > I skied there they only had one black diamond run and it was pretty
marginal
 > for that classification.

There you go getting me confused with the facts. That was 15 years ago
or so, and I thought it was Keystone, but then it might have been a
green run as well. All I remember was this human snowball slowly
rolling down the slope.

I will tell you another OT story, which is my favorite, and has to do
with the worlds greatest athelete (well at least IMHO)


This has to do when I was learning to ski, and I was playing the part
of the human snowball. I had taken 3 or 4 days of lessons, and the
instructor told me I just needed to go out and get time on the slopes.
This was great fun until I started pushing my limits on the blue/black
runs especially with moguls.

One day, while setting on Lower Columbine @ Mary Jane, amongst the
moguls probably having fallen for the hundredth time, and not totally
convinced that I was having fun, and generally feeling sorry for
myself. I all of a sudden heard a hoot behind me and figured I was
about to get run over. With a great deal of effort the two skiers
coming down together missed me, but piled up on the side of the run. I
expected them to be mad at me for setting in the center of a narrow
run, and for causing them to fall. Surprisingly, all I heard was
laughter as they untangled themselves and their skies and poles, and
with out missing a beat, they took off down the moguled slope. The ski
instructor holding the leash of the blind skier, and then I realized
that the blind skier had only one leg.

I realized then that I had nothing to complain about, and if he could
ski the moguls, then there was no reason stopping me except what was
between by ears. I can still remember them skiing away down that slope,
and the last thing I heard as they turned out of sight, was the worlds
greatest athelete, laughing. TnT<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Tinkerntom wrote:

 > Winter time being a great time for story telling, and having been
 > involved in some story telling on another thread, I thought I would try
 > moving in to its own topic. I know there are some good stories and
 > story tellers out there, and we're all ready for a good laugh or sigh.


It's a story all right. As in "Tall Tale."

There is no such thing as a "Triple Black Diamond" at Keystone or
anywhere else in Colorado. It's sort of like telling a story about a
class nine rapid.

Anyway, I'll let you finish:


 > The funniest situation I ever saw of bravado, and only funny because it
 > turned out ok was regarding a skier here in Colorado.
 >
 > I was skiing at Keystone in the Out Back, when I came across a young
 > man maybe in his 20s, in T-shirt and jeans. He had no jacket, gloves or
 > hat. He had rented skis that day, and without lessons, set out on his
 > own to learn to ski. He figured that if he went to the highest lift,
 > and found the steepest run, that by the time he got to the bottom, he
 > would know how to ski.
 >
 > I passed him probably 15 times on the Triple Black Diamond, and offered
 > help each time. I saw others also offer assistance, and with the same
 > result -refused, he was going to teach himself. Someone apparently
 > notified the SkiPatrol eventually, though they were not able to do
 > anything as long as he did not consent to their help.
 >
 > At the end of the day they were sweeping the runs, and just in time,
 > because they found him hypothermic and disorientated. This time they
 > did not need his consent, as I saw them bundle him shaking onto the
 > sled. I heard later that he had survived.
 >
 > The part that was funny, was I remember seeing him going down the mtn,
 > head over heels, skis going every which way. Like they say "Yardsale!"
 > Then he would have to scramble through the snow to get his gear
 > altogether, strapped back on, go five feet and start all over again. A
 > moving living Disastor zone.
 >
 > Sorry about the OT story, but I have not been kayaking long enough to
 > have my own kayaking story, so I look forward to yours. TnT
 >


--
// Walt
//
// There is no Volkl Conspiracy<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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for flat water paddling it's a great way to learn

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On 16-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" <tnksng.DeleteThis@qwest.net> wrote:

 > Surprisingly, all I heard was
 > laughter as they untangled themselves and their skies and poles, and
 > with out missing a beat, they took off down the moguled slope. The ski
 > instructor holding the leash of the blind skier, and then I realized
 > that the blind skier had only one leg.

Some of the best cross-country skiing I've done was guiding a
blind skier. She was a paralympic competitor and really put me
thru the paces. She set the line downhill and I had to set my
line accordingly without falling. The most challenging skiing
I've done and the most rewarding. It makes it hard to listen
to whiners telling me how tough their skiing is, though.

Mike<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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in article evCGd.313$UN1.158@news.itd.umich.edu, Walt at
walt_askier.DeleteThis@yourboots.yahoo.com wrote on 1/16/05 6:10 PM:

  >> I was skiing at Keystone in the Out Back, when I came across a young
  >> man maybe in his 20s, in T-shirt and jeans. He had no jacket, gloves or
  >> hat. He had rented skis that day, and without lessons, set out on his
  >> own to learn to ski. He figured that if he went to the highest lift,
  >> and found the steepest run, that by the time he got to the bottom, he
  >> would know how to ski.

I had a jacket and gloves, and the skiing here probably doesn't offer hills
of equal challenge, but that is exactly how I learned to ski. I'd never been
on downhill skis in my life, my buddies took me up to camp fortune, pointed
me towards the side with the more difficult hills, and off I went. A great
many people learn things simply by doing them.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Hi William,

On 16 Jan 2005 23:17:53 GMT, you wrote:

 > for flat water paddling it's a great way to learn

Care to define "flat water" for us?

I'm not sure if you consider all sea kayak paddling to be "flat water"
paddling (as opposed to whitewater), but I can assure you that the
water around here is most often not very flat; even though it's not
running down steep river canyons. My local waters include surf,
currents, big swell, wind waves, clapotis, turbulent tide rips/races,
and rock gardens/sea caves.

While I do agree - to a degree - that a person can gradually develop
many of the skills and much of the knowledge required for this type
of water on their own, I probably wouldn't recommend that a fresh
newbie launch into the surf by themselves for the first time and
"just do it" as a way to learn how to paddle.

[of course, here I should admit to a bit of "do as I say, not as I do"
advice ]

We "flat water" paddlers also have to learn to deal with tides and
currents, very sudden wind and sea state changes (can go from glassy
calm to major tide races, clapotis, wind waves, etc. in a blink). The
surf zone itself can also change its character pretty suddenly.

Here's a picture of me paddling out into a bit of my local "flat
water" (as a one year relative newbie):

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://photobucket.com/albums/v61/watersprite/?action=view&current=Me.jpg" target="_blank">http://photobucket.com/albums/v61/watersprite/?action=view&current=Me.jpg</a>

- --
Melissa

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Melissa (willkayakforfoodREMOVE_THIS@gmx.net) writes:
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 > Hi William,
 >
 > On 16 Jan 2005 23:17:53 GMT, you wrote:
 >
  >> for flat water paddling it's a great way to learn
 >
 > Care to define "flat water" for us?

flat: no surf

eg: Rideau River, Meach Lake (both popular flat water paddling venues)

it's also the perfect way to learn to run rapids, starting small and
working up. it's the way it's been done for thousands of years before the
invention of "certified padding instructors", and before the invention of
railroads and automobiles when canoes and kayaks were used for every day
transportation by all the residents of Canada. instead of a car parked in
your driveway you had a canoe or a kayak. even as late as the 1960's
prospectors and trappers still used canoes every day in season to earn their
living without the advantage of a "certified paddling instructor". most of
North amercia was explored, mapped, and surveyed (eg Geological Survey of
Canada) from canoes before the invention of "certified paddling
instructors", often by wilderness novices right of the boat from the old
country looking for any kind of work or serving in Her Majesty's forces.


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Hi William,

On 17 Jan 2005 14:47:05 GMT, you wrote:

 > it's also the perfect way to learn to run rapids, starting small and
 > working up. it's the way it's been done for thousands of years
 > before the invention of "certified padding instructors"

I understand, and I can't really disagree, because aside from a few
tips from friends over the years (mostly in the first few months of
my paddling), one half hour rolling lesson from a friend years ago,
and books, articles, and videos I've sought out on my own, I've had
no formal training or certification either.

Since this thread was about "newbie bravado", it did get me thinking
about people I've seen on the water who really were, shall we say,
into it quite "over their heads", and were just a lucky charm away
from tragedy. And then there's this...

We also know that while there may not have been "certified"
instruction programs per se for thousands of years, on and off the
water boat training has been, and still is, very sophisticated in the
cultures where traveling and hunting by boat was/is a matter of
survival.

For instance, most modern recreational canoeists and kayakers feel
pretty good about their skills if they've been paddling for years and
only know one, two, or three ways to roll their boats. The
Greenlanders, for instance, have thousands of years of experience in
very sophisticated "formal" training from a very early age, and it is
not uncommon for very young paddlers to be proficient at 30 or so
different ways to roll their kayaks. Wet exit/re-entry wasn't really
an option for them because of the extreme cold water and their
"survival apparel/gear", so learning to roll every which way was quite
necessary.

I have a friend who's been paddling on the ocean for many more years
than I and he still hasn't mastered a single reliable roll in spite
of having ample opportunity to learn. He's very good at bracing, and
rarely has to resort to a wet exit/re-entry, but he's also been
*very* lucky to be alive after some of his more harrowing
experiences. Many might say that he just exercised poor judgment to
have gotten himself into certain situations he had no business
getting into in the first place, but I also know that at least one of
his closest calls came about quite unexpectedly even to the much more
expert paddlers he was paddling with on that day, and they all had to
help each other survive.

And so, in our modern recreational paddling culture, where we're not
necessarily taught sophisticated techniques from a very early age
unless we seek "formal training", I can certainly see the advantages
of these modern certified training programs like those offered
through ACA and BCU for example, or at least non-certified training
from friends and/or through paddling clubs. Ancient knowledge has
always been passed down from generation to generation through very
sophisticated "training" regardless of "certification", as it was
always a matter of survival.

Even though I feel quite confident with my current skills for the
types of water I paddle on, I know that I could still benefit greatly
from the types of advanced training offered by ACA and BCU, and
someday, I probably will take advantage of one or more of these
programs. The actual certification isn't really the point for me;
just the training...for both the survival skills and just for the fun
of learning these techniques that would be new to me.

- --
Melissa

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Red Deer River running high (but not stupid high)...

No big deal until Big Rock. Still getting over the year before's ass-kicking on the Kicking Horse, I decided to walk, with a number
of our beginners. But sit back and watch the carnage! There was the pair in the ducky, travelling with a raft company (why the
raft co. let them go in a ducky is a question I don't have an answer to). Right over the pourover at the start of the rapid! Swim
the rest.

Then there was the group of three people in two canoes. The pair in one was completely clueless. They avoided the pourover (which
really isn't difficult), but were unable to avoid the big waves and swamped. Swim. The solo canoeist really looked like he knew
what he was doing, nonchalantly and skillfully paddling around the pourover. But then, all he needed to do was put in two or three
good strokes to miss the big waves, and he never did... Maybe he wanted to ride them, but in an open canoe without floatation, I
wouldn't think that was a good idea. Swamp. Swim.

So, get down to Gooseberry. The raft company is there, and all but one make it through safely--even the pair in the ducky got
ejected but they did make it through. One raft is off line and gets stuck. Now for those who haven't paddled the Red Deer,
Gooseberry is a river-wide ledge, and the river is probably over 200 feet wide. There is an angled tongue down the centre, which
can be ridden at any water level. Some people will boof the left edge of the ledge as well. At high water, like it was that day,
the line is razor thin, and the consequences of being off line would be rather unpleasant (though a swimmer would be most likely be
spit out after a spin cycle or two). Once again, I walked. As I said, one raft missed the line (just barely) and got stuck in the
hole. All the passengers were ejected (a couple had some unpleasant recirculations in the hole for a few seconds which probably
seemed like a lifetime to the hapless swimmers) but the guide stayed in. And he stayed in for the full fifteen minutes that his
raft was stuck!! Apparently he was a very experienced guide who had never once flipped a raft--and he still didn't flip it.
Anyway, a couple rafts unsuccessfully tried to knock him out of the hole. One of our kayakers ran the drop with a throwbag in his
teeth, throwing it at the right moment--he hit the guide in the face with the bag, but the guide was unable to grab it! Then there
was the guide on shore trying (two or three times!) to hit the raft, 80-90 feet away, with his 60 foot throwbag... And glaring at
me for not trying to throw my bag!

So we get down to the Nationals site, where the raft company takes their customers for a swim off a small cliff. One decides it
would fun to attack one of kayakers... At first, we thought he was panicking and was just trying to get out of the water, but it
was soon obvious that he was just an a$$hole.

Eventually, we get to the takeout, where we saw the remains of the canoe that the guy was paddling solo. We later found out that he
had tried to line his boat through Gooseberry, and it got away from him... He actually tried to accuse people of stealign the gear
he had had tied into the boat!

An amazing day of crazy bravado...

(I missed the really crazy day of bravado, when the river was stupid-high...)

-Paul
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