1989 bayliner ciera 2455

On Mar 12, 6:00?pm, Gene Kearns <gene.boat....RemoveThis@myworkshop.idleplay.net>
wrote:
> On 12 Mar 2007 16:33:10 -0700, Chuck Gould penned the following well
> considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Mar 12, 3:10?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing <e....RemoveThis@swsports.org> wrote:
> >> On 12 Mar 2007 14:34:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
>
> >> <chuckgould.ch....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
> >> >market value.
>
> >> Exactly.
>
> >> And I guarentee you they aren't selling at $10/12000.
>
> >That's odd- the original poster in this thread just reported paying
> >$10,000 for one of these. (And an examination of 64 different boat ads
> >discloses that $10,000 is a common offering price for this model, with
> >some examples a few thousand higher and some examples a few thousand
> >less). Did he overpay by 66% because NADA says he did, or did he shop
> >around and decide to pay that price based on comparable offerings?
> >That's the focus of the question.
>
> Jeeze, Chuck..... an "offering price" is nearly always a *reality
> check* for these price point boats. Based on local selling/buying he
> most likely got stung. His market might be *really different,* but I
> don't know why.....
>

It's tough to craft a convincing argument that there is no resale
market for the most popular selling boat new boat in the world.

I haven't seen the guy's boat. It could be a real Turdship, or not. I
wouldn't begin to say what the boat is worth without seeing it, nor
should others. Unless a market is locally depressed for a particular
model (as you say yours is for all Bayliners), there is going to be
reslae activity at a general price level.

The skeptic pipes up and says, "But how do you know that those 40 some
out of 60 people advertising their boats for 40-100% (and more) above
the NADA are getting those prices?" Obviously, we don't. However, we
do have a general indicator. People with a boat on the market always
tend to start high. Human nature. When a boat goes unsold for week
after week, the advertised price starts getting a little softer. In
most cases, the price drops at a slow but steady pace until the phone
starts to ring. Joila! That's the price that will lkely attract a
buyer in the local market. The fact that very, very few of the
Bayliners similar to the one the original poster just bought are
priced down even close to the "high retail" in NADA is a pretty good
indicator that the street price is a lot higher than the NADA fantasy
figure. The boats are being sold and disappear from the market before
the sellers have to get down to such a low number.

No serious marine lenders in our region use NADA for anything boating
related. A couple of credit unions do- but only because their loan
underwriting guidelines require them to do so.

I'll never forget a go-around I had with a local credit union one
time. A guy came in and put money on a boat, and said he was going to
arrange his own financing. Fine. As I remember, he made better than
just an "OK" deal on about a 35-foot boat. He called me two days
later, mad as heck. He'd stopped payment on his deposit check, and
accused me of trying to rip him off.
"My credit union showed me the NADA," he said. "Even with all the
options figured in, you were charging me over $30,000 too much for the
boat!" (The transaction price was about $150,000).

I sent him copies of the reported sales prices for the same boat in
our region.
I sent him copies of the advertised asking prices for the same boat in
our region. I reminded him that he had been shopping and comparing for
several months before he made the offer on the boat. He said, "The
only people I can count on to be on my side in this whole deal is my
credit union. They're telling me that you're trying to rip me off, and
that's the end of the story as far as we're concerned."

Finally I called the credit union. "Sorry," said the loan officer. "We
adhere stricly to the NADA guidelines."

"So how many boat loans do you write?" I asked.

"Almost none. Everybody comes in with a deal that's so far over book
we're not allowed to make the loan."

In other words, "the rest of the army is out of step".

I ran into the same customer several months later. I asked him what
sort of boat he finally ended up with. "Oh, we haven't bought a boat
yet. We can't find anybody honest enough to sell us one for what NADA
and the credit union says we should pay."
 >> Stay informed about: 1989 bayliner ciera 2455 

On 12 Mar 2007 16:33:10 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
<chuckgould.chuck RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mar 12, 3:10?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing <e... RemoveThis @swsports.org> wrote:
>> On 12 Mar 2007 14:34:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
>>
>> <chuckgould.ch... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>> >The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
>> >market value.
>>
>> Exactly.
>>
>> And I guarentee you they aren't selling at $10/12000.
>
>That's odd- the original poster in this thread just reported paying
>$10,000 for one of these. (And an examination of 64 different boat ads
>discloses that $10,000 is a common offering price for this model, with
>some examples a few thousand higher and some examples a few thousand
>less). Did he overpay by 66% because NADA says he did, or did he shop
>around and decide to pay that price based on comparable offerings?
>That's the focus of the question.

You obviously know more than anybody here about the subject.

I bow to your expertise.
 >> Stay informed about: 1989 bayliner ciera 2455 

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 >> Stay informed about: 1989 bayliner ciera 2455 

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 >> Stay informed about: 1989 bayliner ciera 2455 

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:00:28 -0400, Gene Kearns
<gene.boating.DeleteThis@myworkshop.idleplay.net> wrote:

>On 12 Mar 2007 16:33:10 -0700, Chuck Gould penned the following well
>considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
>
>>On Mar 12, 3:10?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing <e....DeleteThis@swsports.org> wrote:
>>> On 12 Mar 2007 14:34:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
>>>
>>> <chuckgould.ch....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
>>> >market value.
>>>
>>> Exactly.
>>>
>>> And I guarentee you they aren't selling at $10/12000.
>>
>>That's odd- the original poster in this thread just reported paying
>>$10,000 for one of these. (And an examination of 64 different boat ads
>>discloses that $10,000 is a common offering price for this model, with
>>some examples a few thousand higher and some examples a few thousand
>>less). Did he overpay by 66% because NADA says he did, or did he shop
>>around and decide to pay that price based on comparable offerings?
>>That's the focus of the question.
>
>Jeeze, Chuck..... an "offering price" is nearly always a *reality
>check* for these price point boats. Based on local selling/buying he
>most likely got stung. His market might be *really different,* but I
>don't know why.....

No, let's not beat up Chuck - he has a lot of experience in this area
and I for one will take his word that NADA is not used by boat dealers
of any good repute.

I'm sure that all those Bayliner owners will sell their boats for well
north of the listed NADA price.

I'll take Chuck at his word.
 >> Stay informed about: 1989 bayliner ciera 2455 

On 12 Mar 2007 18:03:51 -0700, "Tim" <tschnautz DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mar 12, 6:13 pm, Gene Kearns
><gene.boat... DeleteThis @myworkshop.idleplay.net>
>>
>> >89 Bayliners make excellent submarines.
>>
>> and reefs
>
>Why do you think they're called "Bay-liners?"

Ok - that was funny. :>)
 >> Stay informed about: 1989 bayliner ciera 2455 

On Mar 12, 9:52�pm, "Chuck Gould" <chuckgould.ch....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 12, 6:00?pm, Gene Kearns <gene.boat....RemoveThis@myworkshop.idleplay.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 12 Mar 2007 16:33:10 -0700, Chuck Gould penned the following well
> > considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
>
> > >On Mar 12, 3:10?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing <e....RemoveThis@swsports.org> wrote:
> > >> On 12 Mar 2007 14:34:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
>
> > >> <chuckgould.ch....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
> > >> >market value.
>
> > >> Exactly.
>
> > >> And I guarentee you they aren't selling at $10/12000.
>
> > >That's odd- the original poster in this thread just reported paying
> > >$10,000 for one of these. (And an examination of 64 different boat ads
> > >discloses that $10,000 is a common offering price for this model, with
> > >some examples a few thousand higher and some examples a few thousand
> > >less). Did he overpay by 66% because NADA says he did, or did he shop
> > >around and decide to pay that price based on comparable offerings?
> > >That's the focus of the question.
>
> > Jeeze, Chuck..... an "offering price" is nearly always a *reality
> > check* for these price point boats. Based on local selling/buying he
> > most likely got stung. His market might be *really different,* but I
> > don't know why.....
>
> It's tough to craft a convincing argument that there is no resale
> market for the most popular selling boat new boat in the world.
>
> I haven't seen the guy's boat. It could be a real Turdship, or not. I
> wouldn't begin to say what the boat is worth without seeing it, nor
> should others. Unless a market is locally depressed for a particular
> model (as you say yours is for all Bayliners), there is going to be
> reslae activity at a general price level.
>
> The skeptic pipes up and says, "But how do you know that those 40 some
> out of 60 people advertising their boats for 40-100% (and more) above
> the NADA are getting those prices?"  Obviously, we don't. However, we
> do have a general indicator. People with a boat on the market always
> tend to start high. Human nature. When a boat goes unsold for week
> after week, the advertised price starts getting a little softer. In
> most cases, the price drops at a slow but steady pace until the phone
> starts to ring. Joila! That's the price that will lkely attract a
> buyer in the local market. The fact that very, very few of the
> Bayliners similar to the one the original poster just bought are
> priced down even close to the "high retail" in NADA is a pretty good
> indicator that the street price is a lot higher than the NADA fantasy
> figure. The boats are being sold and disappear from the market before
> the sellers have to get down to such a low number.
>
> No serious marine lenders in our region use NADA for anything boating
> related. A couple of credit unions do- but only because their loan
> underwriting guidelines require them to do so.
>
> I'll never forget a go-around I had with a local credit union one
> time. A guy came in and put money on a boat, and said he was going to
> arrange his own financing. Fine. As I remember, he made better than
> just an "OK" deal on about a 35-foot boat. He called me two days
> later, mad as heck. He'd stopped payment on his deposit check, and
> accused me of trying to rip him off.
> "My credit union showed me the NADA," he said. "Even with all the
> options figured in, you were charging me over $30,000 too much for the
> boat!" (The transaction price was about $150,000).
>
> I sent him copies of the reported sales prices for the same boat in
> our region.
> I sent him copies of the advertised asking prices for the same boat in
> our region. I reminded him that he had been shopping and comparing for
> several months before he made the offer on the boat.  He said, "The
> only people I can count on to be on my side in this whole deal is my
> credit union. They're telling me that you're trying to rip me off, and
> that's the end of the story as far as we're concerned."
>
> Finally I called the credit union. "Sorry," said the loan officer. "We
> adhere stricly to the NADA guidelines."
>
> "So how many boat loans do you write?" I asked.
>
> "Almost none. Everybody comes in with a deal that's so far over book
> we're not allowed to make the loan."
>
> In other words, "the rest of the army is out of step".
>
> I ran into the same customer several months later. I asked him what
> sort of boat he finally ended up with. "Oh, we haven't bought a boat
> yet. We can't find anybody honest enough to sell us one for what NADA
> and the credit union says we should pay."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Pretty interesting, Chuck.
 >> Stay informed about: 1989 bayliner ciera 2455 

Eisboch wrote:
> I haven't followed this thread, but I am wondering why NADA is used. Years
> ago I bought the BUC books and, if I recall correctly, their boat value
> estimates are based on actual sales by region and by condition.
>
> Eisboch

For an alternative to NADA did anybody ever use:

http://www.edmunds.com/

just curious how the values would compare...
 >> Stay informed about: 1989 bayliner ciera 2455 

On Mar 13, 5:32�am, "JimH" <pffffff....DeleteThis@noone.com> wrote:
> "Eisboch" <r....DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4qudnU7h8dfqC2vYnZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
>
> > I haven't followed this thread, but I am wondering why NADA is used.
> > Years ago I bought the BUC  books and, if I recall correctly, their boat
> > value estimates are based on actual sales by region and by condition.
>
> > Eisboch
>
> I agree.  And your local library probably carries the last years edition.
> They also offer an appraisal service for a fee.

BUC is a little better than NADA.

In the last 10 years or so they have lost most access to the data that
once made them pretty reliable.

At one time, the customary data exchange and multiple listing service
for yacht brokers was called BUC.net. It was a pretty sweet deal for
BUC. When you logged on to check regional inventory, etc, you paid
something like $1 a minute to use the service. A busy brokerage office
might run up a bill of $20-$30 a day! Along came Yachtworld with the
broker's-only password protected side, Boatwizard that offered better
service for something under $200 a month when they first began.
(Yachtworld is now several hundred per month- maybe leaving the door
open for the next better mousetrap?). Most of the brokers got out of
BUC.net within a couple of years, and the service lost its data.

BUC does send out sheets to yacht brokers and asks them to report on
the
boats they have sold. There's not much incentive to do that, and it
probably gets put into the "when I get a round tuit" file much of the
time.

A word of caution on BUC. The regional differences are fixed
percentages that are supposed to apply across the board. Doesn't work
that smoothly in real life.
IIRC, there was a 15% add-on for boats in the Pacific NW. Boats do
sell for more money here than elsewhere as there is a lot of
opportunity to use them and the lack of intense sunlight for most of
the year keeps UV degradation to a minimum. That said, a good clean
trawler here will often bring 25% more than the "national average" for
the same vessel, while a picnic or lobster boat that would be very
popular on the East Coast probably will need to be heavily discounted
to sell at all......(exception seems to be the Grand Banks Eastbay
series).

Another tripping point with BUC is the "condition" tables. Everybody
always overestimtes the condition of their boat when they are selling,
and everybody always expects a *lot*, conditionwise, when buying. Far
too many sellers with a decently clean boat, (in the same shape that
most people who cared about their boat would keep it), add on for
"Bristol" condition when using BUC. Conversely, the typical buyer
looks for a reason to offer less and will try to bluff the seller by
stating that he only considers what might be the cleanest boat in the
world "average".

The dance of the buyer and seller goes on, and on, and on.
 >> Stay informed about: 1989 bayliner ciera 2455 

I haven't followed this thread, but I am wondering why NADA is used. Years
ago I bought the BUC books and, if I recall correctly, their boat value
estimates are based on actual sales by region and by condition.

Eisboch
 >> Stay informed about: 1989 bayliner ciera 2455 

Eisboch wrote:
> I haven't followed this thread, but I am wondering why NADA is used. Years
> ago I bought the BUC books and, if I recall correctly, their boat value
> estimates are based on actual sales by region and by condition.
>
> Eisboch
>
>
In my limited experience, NADA is used by broker's when they are buying
a used boat to justify their low ball offer.
 >> Stay informed about: 1989 bayliner ciera 2455 

"Eisboch" <rce DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:4qudnU7h8dfqC2vYnZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
> I haven't followed this thread, but I am wondering why NADA is used.
> Years ago I bought the BUC books and, if I recall correctly, their boat
> value estimates are based on actual sales by region and by condition.
>
> Eisboch
>
>

I agree. And your local library probably carries the last years edition.
They also offer an appraisal service for a fee.
 >> Stay informed about: 1989 bayliner ciera 2455 

At any rate...good luck with the new boat - enjoy!
 >> Stay informed about: 1989 bayliner ciera 2455